Sloop or ketch, pros and cons

[KellysEye]

>For most folks with a modern boat under 50 feet or so ........Pros - sloop Cons.- ketch

I don't think it's that cut and dried. It depends on number of crew and their strength. Our ketch is 38 feet and we chose it, as I mentioned, so Jane could handle the sails. No way could she do that on under or so 50 unless you mean a lot under. We have sailed sloops of fifty and forty seven feet but with six crew and she didn't go near the sails and rightly so.

 

[Rum_Pirate]

I love this one

 

[Colvic Watson]

I don't get why a few people dislike ketches so much! We are a young family, four children and they all get a rope or sail to look after - except the baby

If we're pootling about then it's often just the genoa and mizzen which is a lovely way to sail. The mizzen is best dropped on a very broad reach but useful most of the rest of the time. Wire rigging on the mizzen is hardly stressed at all and so is replaced less frequently and we don't have a triatic stay. We are pretty hopeless at sailing less than 45 degress to the wind, partly because we are long keel and weigh 14 tonnes and partly because we are ketch. Give us 50 degrees plus and any sort of wind and we tramp along under all plain sail. Never bothered with the staysail or a chute, three sails is enough. The lower sail plan means we heel a lot less and we are yet to reef despite sailing in everything from force 1 to force 6. We did think about it a couple of times but the boat was so unstressed with a spread of canvas, relatively low, that we've just kept on going. I read new boat reviews that talk about making sure the first reef is in by 14 knots and have a bit of a chuckle - seems like hard work.

Speed is fun, but for us, 6 knots cruising speed in anything above f3 is quite good enough. If we'd wanted to go faster we'd have bought a bermudan sloop which is a more efficient rig, certainly to windward. We just wanted all the other benefits of a ketch. Plus the looks.

 

[WigglyWeenus]

The shorter main mast reduces the effective height of the rig's CE & thus reduces heeling effect. There is little additional "clutter" on my boat as the mizzen is mounted on top of the wheel pedestal & the mizzen sheet is on top of the aft cabin so does not impact on cockpit space at all.

My rig looks much stronger than on modern boats as the mast is of similar section but shorter. The rigging too is shorter while just as stout. I think that is one reason why my rig is still sound at 40 years old. Which also answers the "extra cost of replacement" issue!

But don't you have insurance issues if you don't re-rig every 10 years?

 

[alan_d]

But don't you have insurance issues if you don't re-rig every 10 years?

Short answer - generally no. The longer answer can be found in the numerous previous threads addressing this.

 

[jant]

A yawl is much prettier !

 

[RichardS]

But don't you have insurance issues if you don't re-rig every 10 years?

Genuine question ..... is Searush still with us?

(Just checked .... his last post was 2015 so I guess he's long gone)

Richard

 

[Zagato]

Eight year old thread! Tranona and Searush have both left it appears... shame.

 

[Sharky34]

Ketches are a little historic now

The original idea between ketches, yawls etc was to split the sail area into more manageable chunks. Go back 50- 75 years when the spars would have been wood, the sails canvas and no real winches and you couldn't have managed the sail area required to drive a larger boat, hence splitting it up.

With modern equipment and materials, there is no practical limit to the size of the sail so no need to split the sail area up.

Keeping one large foil with a sail either side of it is more aerodynamically efficient than the same area without between 2 foils so sloops will perform better to windward.

Ketches are great in reaching conditions, more ways to hang out bits of cloth, mizzen staysails etc, so in theory should outperform a sloop off wind.

Practically, ketches are more work to sail but have a really convenient basis for a jury rig if your main mast goes over the side, plus a great place for hanging radar, other aerials. Plus personally I think they look great!

What, does a mizzen on a yawl do, since it is stepped aft of the rudder post, so must be a handkerchief in comparison to a ketch mizzen.

 

[Sharky34]

Whats the difference between a Yawl and a Ketch I can't see any! Just two different descriptions...

Position of the mizzen mast, ketch is stepped for'wd & yawl is stepped aft, of the rudder post.

 

[jac]

What, does a mizzen on a yawl do, since it is stepped aft of the rudder post, so must be a handkerchief in comparison to a ketch mizzen.

It is - it’s also a vaguely easy way to tell the difference- the mizzen on a yawl is tiny in comparison.

In terms of amount of sail area it adds little but given its CoE it has a great impact on balance.

It is useful when reefing as it’s so small that it can be left up to provide balance and just reef the main, also in theory a good sail to hold the head up to windward.

 

[WigglyWeenus]

I'm brand new to the forum. Just about to purchase my first yacht. Didn't even realise I was posting to such and old thread.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I'm brand new to the forum. Just about to purchase my first yacht. Didn't even realise I was posting to such and old thread.

I loved my just sold ketch in bad weather. If it blows just dump mainsail, bind up with cord, back in cockpit and off you go. No winding or complex reefing and need to adjust and linger away from safety.

 

[E39mad]

A cutter is the modern version of reducing sail areas and probably a preference to a ketch which has all the additional rigging plus of course placing the mizzen mast. With a cutter the staysail remains up usually up to about 40 knots on most boats and is exactly in the right place to provide drive and balance. A Yankee cut headsail also means you don't need to adjust the car when reefing plus provides good visibility.

 

[LittleSister]

What, does a mizzen on a yawl do

Makes the boat look lovely (especially if the boat is gaff rigged).

Position of the mizzen mast, ketch is stepped for'wd & yawl is stepped aft, of the rudder post.

In my view, it's the relative size of the mizzen to the main that determines it. The mizzen mast will usually be stepped aft of the rudder, but if it ain't that doesn't make it a ketch if the mizzen sail's a handkerchief.

You can distinguish a yawl from a ketch a mile away, you don't need to lift it up to see where the rudder is!

 

[WigglyWeenus]

A cutter is the modern version of reducing sail areas and probably a preference to a ketch which has all the additional rigging plus of course placing the mizzen mast. With a cutter the staysail remains up usually up to about 40 knots on most boats and is exactly in the right place to provide drive and balance. A Yankee cut headsail also means you don't need to adjust the car when reefing plus provides good visibility.

Isn't the rigging cost offset by the smaller masts? I'm making the call today to lift ianf survey a Roberts 35 ketch. I'm on the fence with steel over fibreglass.

 

[geem]

A cutter is the modern version of reducing sail areas and probably a preference to a ketch which has all the additional rigging plus of course placing the mizzen mast. With a cutter the staysail remains up usually up to about 40 knots on most boats and is exactly in the right place to provide drive and balance. A Yankee cut headsail also means you don't need to adjust the car when reefing plus provides good visibility.

A cutter rig has been around for ever! They are rubbish dead down wind as they leave you under canvassed. I prefer the solent rig where you fly either a large overlapping headsail or a working jib. You can also pole out both furling headsails on twin poles. Not a good option on a cutter rig if you want some sail area up.
We love our ketch. The mizzen gives great handholds from the rigging around the cockpit. The mizzen staysail with wind on the beam gives us the same additional sail area as the mainsail. A great performance boost. Super easy to set and recover. In stronger conditions the working jib, heavily reefed main and full mizzen gives us a low profile, balanced rig that just eats up the miles in relative comfort. We love the flexibility the mizzen gives us. At anchor a centre sheeted mizzen reduces rolling considerably. In strong winds working jib and mizzen is a great combination. Its great not to have a mainsail set in such conditions. Easy to see the jib and the no danger from a gybe if you are in the cockpit.
Not all ketches are the same. Many have stumpy little masts. I never understand why. Boats should have the ability to carry large sail area in light wind. If a ketch has the same size mast as the sloop version the main still ends up smaller due to a shorter boom as a result of the placement of the mizzen. The advantage is you can carry a large headsail for light weather windward work. Off the wind, our own ketch is faster than the sloop version but we lose out slightly to windward in light winds

 

[michael_w]

My father's aft cockpit ketch was horrible in the rain. a constant stream of water off the mizzen landed on the cockpit's occupants.

The business of sailing under mizzen and genoa doesn't work when the wind gets to F7/8. She was much better balanced and easier to handle under reefed main and jib. The mizzen was stowed.

 

[geem]

My father's aft cockpit ketch was horrible in the rain. a constant stream of water off the mizzen landed on the cockpit's occupants.

The business of sailing under mizzen and genoa doesn't work when the wind gets to F7/8. She was much better balanced and easier to handle under reefed main and jib. The mizzen was stowed.

Our mizzen is behind the cockpit. The main boom is over the cockpit. Our ketch sails beautifully under working jib and mizzen in F7/8 conditions. Not all ketches are the same. What ketch did you sail?

 

[E39mad]

A cutter rig has been around for ever! They are rubbish dead down wind as they leave you under canvassed. I prefer the solent rig where you fly either a large overlapping headsail or a working jib. You can also pole out both furling headsails on twin poles. Not a good option on a cutter rig if you want some sail area up.

Depends how you set them up - as you allude to a twin pole system for dead downwind or tradewind conditions is preferred. Many Vancouver's (built as a cutter) set themselves up this way so yes the staysail is not used in this situation or rarely as is a mizzen sail on a ketch in the same situation. In lighter winds most headsails are too cloth heavy for off the wind work to be efficient and keep your average speed up.

I have nothing against ketches, it's just that cutter rigged boats under 100 foot in length appear to have taken over the old conundrum of how to make sail areas more manageable. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages.