Sloop or ketch, pros and cons

[Sharky34]

Makes the boat look lovely (especially if the boat is gaff rigged).



In my view, it's the relative size of the mizzen to the main that determines it. The mizzen mast will usually be stepped aft of the rudder, but if it ain't that doesn't make it a ketch if the mizzen sail's a handkerchief.

You can distinguish a yawl from a ketch a mile away, you don't need to lift it up to see where the rudder is!

Your opinion.

 

[E39mad]

Isn't the rigging cost offset by the smaller masts? I'm making the call today to lift ianf survey a Roberts 35 ketch. I'm on the fence with steel over fibreglass.

Not sure but with a ketch you have the costs of reinforcement and additional chain plates, mast step and possibly post etc

 

[geem]

Depends how you set them up - as you allude to a twin pole system for dead downwind or tradewind conditions is preferred. Many Vancouver's (built as a cutter) set themselves up this way so yes the staysail is not used in this situation or rarely as is a mizzen sail on a ketch in the same situation. In lighter winds most headsails are too cloth heavy for off the wind work to be efficient and keep your average speed up.

I have nothing against ketches, it's just that cutter rigged boats under 100 foot in length appear to have taken over the old conundrum of how to make sail areas more manageable. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages.

In rolly down wind conditions we often set the mizzen flat with twin tackles to the aft cleats to keep the boom bar tight. The loose footed mizzen sail it set flat as possible. This acts as an effective roll damper. Its most useful when there is a big swell but not so strong winds.
In the Caribbean we see many large superyachts with both solent and cutter rigs combined. They use three furlers.
Its a no brainer in large boats to split up the foresail plan in to smaller junks. Its nothing new. Its been going on for hundreds of years. With modern furling headsails there is no need to go on the foredeck in bumpy weather when going to windward when you would invariably get a soaking. Just wind one in and let one out

 

[steve yates]

What kind of Ketch do you have geem?

 

[WigglyWeenus]

Not sure but with a ketch you have the costs of reinforcement and additional chain plates, mast step and possibly post etc

A steel ketch would eliminate the chain plate worry. All of it really?

 

[E39mad]

A steel ketch would eliminate the chain plate worry. All of it really?

I have no experience of steel yachts. Having said that I would have thought that if the steel is thick enough then yes . As to whether it is wiser to take them to a frame rather than just bolting through the hull with some additional pads I don't know.

 

[RAI]

If you look to racing sailing boats, it's clear that more performance can be squeezed out of the sloop. That was recognised a long time ago.
OK, some people think bi-planes look prettier than monoplanes but not many are made these days. Ditto ketches.

 

[steve yates]

Thats only relevant if your buying your boat just to race.

 

[RAI]

Thats only relevant if your buying your boat just to race.

My experience is that the race starts the moment one sailor spots another.

 

[geem]

What kind of Ketch do you have geem?

A Van de Stadt Trintella 44

 

[geem]

If you look to racing sailing boats, it's clear that more performance can be squeezed out of the sloop. That was recognised a long time ago.
OK, some people think bi-planes look prettier than monoplanes but not many are made these days. Ditto ketches.

Thats just not relevant. If you have ever cruised a racing boat you would know the characteristics of such a boat are not necessarily desirable in a cruising boat. It would be just as crazy to suggest an Imoca 60 would make a great cruiser.
Cruising is not all about ultimate speed. Amel made cruising ketches for years due to their suitability for a couple world cruising. The concept worked well for hundreds of cruising couples and those boats are still very popular. Once you get in the 40 to 60ft length of cruising boat they make a lot of sense.
With my own ketch, it is faster off the wind than the same hull rigged as a sloop.

 

[RAI]

Thats just not relevant. If you have ever cruised a racing boat you would know the characteristics of such a boat are not necessarily desirable in a cruising boat. It would be just as crazy to suggest an Imoca 60 would make a great cruiser.
Cruising is not all about ultimate speed. Amel made cruising ketches for years due to their suitability for a couple world cruising. The concept worked well for hundreds of cruising couples and those boats are still very popular. Once you get in the 40 to 60ft length of cruising boat they make a lot of sense.
With my own ketch, it is faster off the wind than the same hull rigged as a sloop.

I did not suggest taking a racing boat cruising.
Like a bi-plane a ketch sails, but it's not where the best price / performance point lies.

 

[E39mad]

If you look to racing sailing boats, it's clear that more performance can be squeezed out of the sloop. That was recognised a long time ago.
OK, some people think bi-planes look prettier than monoplanes but not many are made these days. Ditto ketches.

Well ketches were one and two and in the 1989/90 Whitbread Round the World Race.

 

[geem]

Five best ketches and yawls - boats.com

 

[geem]

I did not suggest taking a racing boat cruising.
Like a bi-plane a ketch sails, but it's not where the best price / performance point lies.

So now they are too expensive? Have you actually ever sailed a ketch on a passage of several days? It might not be a boat that suits you but me and lots of others appreciate the benefits for the kind of sailing we do

 

[TernVI]

I think ketches are a bit like bilge keelers.
A few % less efficient, so most of the people who sail them are not driven by efficiency.
Hence we often see them sailed less efficiently than they are capable of.
A good ketch is a good boat.
An indifferent sloop can be a poor boat.
I am not an enthusiast for ketches. I like windward efficiency.
But if considering ketches allowed you the option of more lwl then it becomes a different question.
A well sailed 45ft ketch is probably going to thrash a 40ft sloop?
Or maybe it will just have a bigger drinks locker?

 

[geem]

I think ketches are a bit like bilge keelers.
A few % less efficient, so most of the people who sail them are not driven by efficiency.
Hence we often see them sailed less efficiently than they are capable of.
A good ketch is a good boat.
An indifferent sloop can be a poor boat.
I am not an enthusiast for ketches. I like windward efficiency.
But if considering ketches allowed you the option of more lwl then it becomes a different question.
A well sailed 45ft ketch is probably going to thrash a 40ft sloop?
Or maybe it will just have a bigger drinks locker?
[/QUOTE]
There are so many factors that impact on performance. If you chose a bilge keel ketch with fixed prop, stumpy mast, worn out sails, in-mast reefing and a wide beam and short waterline dont expect it to perfrom! The ketch rig would only be one factor that hinder performance to windward.
Choose a ketch rig with deep draft ( on our case 7’2”), moderate beam, tall rig, folding prop and large sail area and you will find the windward performance in light winds will not be a major factor. Guess which one we have? ?
As I said in an earlier post. Friends have the same hull as ours but rigged as a sloop. They have a marginal performance advantage in light winds ( circa 8 kts) where they are faster than us. As soon as the wind gets up the difference disappears. Off the wind we are faster.
Whether a 45’ ketch will thrash a 40ft sloop depends on all the above factors. There are some terrible examples of both types of boat. It is far more complex that sloops are fast than ketches. We generally out perform most cruising boats of a similar size to us regardless of rig type. I think that has more to do with the ability of Mr Van de Stadt to design a good boat.

 

[Woodstock 2363]

Thats just not relevant. If you have ever cruised a racing boat you would know the characteristics of such a boat are not necessarily desirable in a cruising boat. It would be just as crazy to suggest an Imoca 60 would make a great cruiser.
Cruising is not all about ultimate speed. Amel made cruising ketches for years due to their suitability for a couple world cruising. The concept worked well for hundreds of cruising couples and those boats are still very popular. Once you get in the 40 to 60ft length of cruising boat they make a lot of sense.
With my own ketch, it is faster off the wind than the same hull rigged as a sloop.

Geem I am looking at a 1974 47ft Morgan Ketch to purchase, having only sailed a 1977 22ft sloop it is definitely an upgrade but it is a long keel 4'7 with a swing keel to 7ft combination and was wondering if your boat is similar? I have been reading like crazy trying to get educated and people have so many different opinions on them was wondering if you who own one could maybe give me some pointers on what you love and hate about a ketch. Thank you for your time.

 

[Supertramp]

Geem I am looking at a 1974 47ft Morgan Ketch to purchase, having only sailed a 1977 22ft sloop it is definitely an upgrade but it is a long keel 4'7 with a swing keel to 7ft combination and was wondering if your boat is similar? I have been reading like crazy trying to get educated and people have so many different opinions on them was wondering if you who own one could maybe give me some pointers on what you love and hate about a ketch. Thank you for your time.

Think about how you plan to sail, and the other design features of the boat (long keel vs fin, cruiser vs racer) and how you like to sail. 47ft is big and heavy in my book so I would want to make sure I and crew could manage the core activities of sailing, mooring, anchoring. I have enjoyed years of sailing simple sloops - quick to set up and put away, exciting day sailing plus cruising. I bought a ketch because I knew I would be single-handed much of the time and combined with a long keel and heavy displacement she provides a steady and easily managed passage yacht. Not much good for racing around buoys. Its the rig in combination with other features that fit my sailing style. I love the fact that she self steers without autopilot, has an inner Solent stay for a hanked on jib and that I can use the mizzen to make anchoring easier. Lift the anchor with the mizzen up and she "waits" while I finish the foredeck and return to the helm. Balance the boat using the mizzen sheeting angle to help her self steer. Working jib and mizzen is a really balanced rig in fresh winds. I could have found other boats that do most of what I want but it's the combination of ketch with other features that made me choose it. So think about the overall picture of your sailing and if the ketch benefits fit well then consider it.

PS. No idea if I go faster or slower than sloops etc. I go happy and try to stay calm!

 

[LittleSister]

Sloop or ketch is the wrong question.

A yawl has all the advantages/disadvantages* of either a sloop or a ketch, but is better looking than both.

(*delete according to taste )