Sloop or ketch, pros and cons

[tsekul]

I'm fairly new to the sailing game.

What are the pros and cons of a ketch over a sloop type boat.

Is it just preferance. I would the guess that the upkeep of a ketch is more than a sloop as there is more of it to wear out and go wrong.

Opinions biased or otherwise appreciated

T

 

[jonic]

Pros and cons but if short handed a ketch allows you to use more sail area in a manageable way, as it is broken down into smaller sails.

 

[ffiill]

I have a 34 foot ketch which chose me so to speak.
I find it far easier to handle single handed.
Individual sail areas are smaller and main mast is a little lower.
If it gets too windy all I do is drop the main and sail on missen and genoa-I was happily going along at six knots recently in a 15 knot wind with of course hardly any heel.
Missen is also great in keeping boat in best position to wind/waves on a mooring and for motoring into the wind where set down tight it acts like a very big ruddero

 

[jac]

Ketches are a little historic now

The original idea between ketches, yawls etc was to split the sail area into more manageable chunks. Go back 50- 75 years when the spars would have been wood, the sails canvas and no real winches and you couldn't have managed the sail area required to drive a larger boat, hence splitting it up.

With modern equipment and materials, there is no practical limit to the size of the sail so no need to split the sail area up.

Keeping one large foil with a sail either side of it is more aerodynamically efficient than the same area without between 2 foils so sloops will perform better to windward.

Ketches are great in reaching conditions, more ways to hang out bits of cloth, mizzen staysails etc, so in theory should outperform a sloop off wind.

Practically, ketches are more work to sail but have a really convenient basis for a jury rig if your main mast goes over the side, plus a great place for hanging radar, other aerials. Plus personally I think they look great!

 

[snowleopard]

The biggest advantage of a ketch is to be able to drop the main for a rapid reduction of canvas. The mizzen is a useful riding sail to stop you veering about at anchor. They are also pretty. The rest is generally pretty negative though I'm sure devotees will flame me for that remark. It has been said 'No one buys a second ketch'.

I have experience of only one, the Contest 48 but I did cross the Atlantic in it. I would not have one of my own. To windward the skipper would always drop the mizzen as it provided more drag than lift, leaving him under-canvassed compared to sloops. The much-vaunted mizzen staysail never left its bag as he said it was more trouble than it was worth. I was prepared to take his word for it as he had sailed 80,000 miles in the boat. The triatic stay is an invention of the devil. After 10 years there is a lot more wire to be replaced.

With modern sail handling systems the fact that a ketch has smaller sails confers little benefit.

 

[tsekul]

My head says sloop but my heart say ketch, but I have no basis for that feeling as I know very little about either

Maybe it's because I recently read "once is enough"

 

[Tranona]

30 years or more ago you would have found much more support for ketch rigs for the reasons stated - it allowed easier control over sail area for small crews. This is now no longer an issue because of improvements in sail handling equipment.

So you are left with the negatives - twice the rigging (high initial cost and maintenance), cluttered decks and cockpits and poorer performance on most points of sail.

Only saving grace is that the rig is well matched to some types of hull - particularly the long keel, shallow draft slack bilged designs that were common and benefitted from a low aspect well spread out sail plan. Look attractive to some eyes, but wasteful on the space to length ratio.

 

[Searush]

I have a 40 year old 31' ketch which I chose for its size, price & the gorgeous looks of a ketch!

On the wind, the main reduces the effectiveness of the mizzen which needs to be slightly harder in than the main, so it is either not drawing or you are further off the wind than a sloop might be.

Off the wind the rig is very powerful & the addition of a mizzen staysail can be as good as a second cruising chute! However, I have never actually bothered with getting a staysail as I do not often get long legs on one tack to fully enjoy its benefits.

When running, it is difficult to get clear air to al 3 sails, but a jib stick helps, as would lowering the mizzen!

Extra costs? Not significant really for me, as my sails & running gear are lasting well due to limited use . But the usual "change a rope or two" one year, a sail another year etc & I doubt you would notice the difference.

Sail plan flexibility is great & my first reef is often to drop & stow the main. The second one might be to start the engine & roll up the genny. Using Mizzen (just 70sqft) & r/r genny gives enough speed control to allow me to sail onto moorings or into docks.

So, maybe they are not so fashionable now, but like cutters, gaffers & junk rigs, they still add a welcome change from the ubiquitous & boring wide-bodied AWB sloops which are unduly influenced by racing designs rather than cruising needs.

 

[Sequoiah1]

More weight aloft. More Windage. More cluttered aft deck or cockpit area, reduced efficiency to windward. Greater cost when replacing rigging and fittings. Had one and wouldnt go back to one unless it was a very big boat (and dont see that happening)
Modern sloop /cutter rigs with the modern sail handling equipment I believe dispel all the possible perceived advantages of a ketch except for one. They look pretty on an old fashioned boat. The argument for having somewher to hang all your antennae is easilly solved by having either post, an arch or hang stuff on the main mast.

 

[lw395]

You either like the way ketches look or not.
To me the Bermudan ketch is an ugly mess.

The extra sail gives you more possibilities to set things inefficiently.

Plus points are you can string a short wave aerial between the masts and the mizzen is a good steadying sail for a fishing boat.

If you must have extra spars, have a bowsprit!

 

[Searush]

More weight aloft. More Windage. More cluttered aft deck or cockpit area, reduced efficiency to windward. Greater cost when replacing rigging and fittings. Had one and wouldnt go back to one unless it was a very big boat (and dont see that happening)
Modern sloop /cutter rigs with the modern sail handling equipment I believe dispel all the possible perceived advantages of a ketch except for one. They look pretty on an old fashioned boat. The argument for having somewher to hang all your antennae is easilly solved by having either post, an arch or hang stuff on the main mast.

The shorter main mast reduces the effective height of the rig's CE & thus reduces heeling effect. There is little additional "clutter" on my boat as the mizzen is mounted on top of the wheel pedestal & the mizzen sheet is on top of the aft cabin so does not impact on cockpit space at all.

My rig looks much stronger than on modern boats as the mast is of similar section but shorter. The rigging too is shorter while just as stout. I think that is one reason why my rig is still sound at 40 years old. Which also answers the "extra cost of replacement" issue!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

As with all things, surely it is horses for courses. Ketches allow more flexibility in the sail plan, which allows for rapid reduction of sail area and using the sails for things other than sailing (e.g. using the mizzen when riding to anchor). Sloops are (probably) more out and out efficient.

For me, the relative ease of sail handling would be important; I find sail handling hard work even with a modern rig and sail handling gadgets! And being able to reduce sail by dropping the main would be a good thing as far as I am concerned.

I'd say that ketches are well suited to cruising, but if you're racing or otherwise into "performance" sailing, then they are not for you.

I sail a sloop at present, but would certainly consider a ketch if I ever change.

I can't see that the costs would be much different - OK, more wires and ropes, but generally less stressed. I'd guess it balances.

 

[KellysEye]

We sailed over a dozen different sloops when chartering but we bought a ketch to go long distance sailing. The sailing differences are sloops are faster up wind and downwind with a spinnaker because of the taller mast. Ketches are reaching machines and with every thing up including a mizzn staysail will easily beat a sloop the same size and we have beaten some bigger boats without a staysail.

The other reasons we bought a ketch were:
- they heel less easily because of the lower sail plan
- they are usually heavily built
- they are usually good sea boats
- you have a greater range of reefing options when the wind increases, thus balancing the boat is easier which is very important with a wind vane
- with a split sail area Jane can handle the sails on her own
- yes they are pretty

For pottering around the coast I would buy a sloop.

 

[Zagato]

Whats the difference between a Yawl and a Ketch I can't see any! Just two different descriptions...

 

[Tranona]

No, a Yawl has the mizzen mast aft of the rudder stock, ketch in front. This means a yawl usually has a smaller proportion of the sail area in the mizzen. Origins of the yawl are twofold. Initially on working boats to balance the sail area and as a riding sail. Later on cruiser racers because the CCA rating formula did not measure the mizzen area, so it was "free". You will find many 1950s - 60,s US cruiser racers with this rig for that reason. The extra mast did allow a mizzen staysail to improve reaching performance, but the mainsail and foresail were usually similar to a sloop.

When the rules changed, the yawls, together with their big stern overhangs to support the mast disappeared overnight on new designs. Typical example of the impact of racing rules on cruising designs. Boats from that era, particularly designed by Olin Stevens, master of this style, are still desirable.

 

[dunedin]

For most folks with a modern boat under 50 feet or so ........

Pros - sloop

Cons.- ketch

 

[BruceDanforth]

It's what you enjoy really.

 

[Zagato]

No, a Yawl has the mizzen mast aft of the rudder stock, ketch in front. This means a yawl usually has a smaller proportion of the sail area in the mizzen. Origins of the yawl are twofold. Initially on working boats to balance the sail area and as a riding sail. Later on cruiser racers because the CCA rating formula did not measure the mizzen area, so it was "free". You will find many 1950s - 60,s US cruiser racers with this rig for that reason. The extra mast did allow a mizzen staysail to improve reaching performance, but the mainsail and foresail were usually similar to a sloop.

When the rules changed, the yawls, together with their big stern overhangs to support the mast disappeared overnight on new designs. Typical example of the impact of racing rules on cruising designs. Boats from that era, particularly designed by Olin Stevens, master of this style, are still desirable.

Thanks once again...

 

[prv]

No, a Yawl has the mizzen mast aft of the rudder stock, ketch in front. This means a yawl usually has a smaller proportion of the sail area in the mizzen.

I'd put those two sentences the other way round. A ketch has a big mizzen, a yawl has a small one. There are traditional yawls that have the mizzen forward of the rudder post, but they're clearly yawls due to the sail proportions.

The rudder post thing came in as a definition for racing purposes, as simpler and more concrete than trying to define "big" and "small" in a way that couldn't be gamed.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

I'd put those two sentences the other way round. A ketch has a big mizzen, a yawl has a small one. There are traditional yawls that have the mizzen forward of the rudder post, but they're clearly yawls due to the sail proportions.

The rudder post thing came in as a definition for racing purposes, as simpler and more concrete than trying to define "big" and "small" in a way that couldn't be gamed.

Pete

No. The defining characteristic of a yawl is that the mizzen is aft of the rudder post (look up wikepedia which has all the references). The smaller sail area is a consequence of the positioning of the mast. On transom sterned workboat hull the sail and boom would overhang and often be sheeted to a removable bumpkin. Sometimes also called a "jigger" sail.

When the rig was adopted by cruiser racers, it was because the rule did not measure sail area aft of the rudder stock (or more probably, long time since I read the CCA rules) after of the LWL measurement. Hence the use of a yawl rig and the elongated sterns to allow staying of the mast and sheeting of the boom.