PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Cheap option for that : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-...716774?hash=item3abe8873e6:g:6OoAAOSwHnFVp13r
Used one for 3 years on last boat without issue.
Single hand a Jeanneau 409/419?
- Thread starter dune16
- Start date
Cheap option for that : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-...716774?hash=item3abe8873e6:g:6OoAAOSwHnFVp13r
Used one for 3 years on last boat without issue.
cmedsailor
Well-Known Member
Very wise words. I single handle my Beneteau 361, I installed a remote control (one of those cheap ones from ebay; works just fine) to drop the anchor while at the helm BUT due to the anchor locker and the chain piling up I cannot pull it up from the helm. This is unfortunately a problem that MANY boats have. Luckily usually it's easier to leave the cockpit in order to lift the anchor rather than drop it.
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
I have never had a boat with in-mast reefing but I have helped many friends trying to recover the sail after mishaps, especially when flexible battens get twisted and jammed.
My opinion of in-mast reefing / furling is that "When it is good it is very, very good but when it is bad it is awful". Just a personal opinion, of course.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Very few in-mast sails have battens.
ex-Gladys
Well-Known Member
One must have feature for a stack pack, cockpit led halyard main is a retrieval line... Attach a light line to the top slide, lead down to the deck, turning block, deck organiser, back to cockpit. When you lower the mean, you can pull it down with the line, and get all the slides/batten cars "chock-a-block". It needs a jammer of some sort, so that when you hoist it, you can just take the slack out and have it finish up around the radar reflector, and also when down, you can take the tension back into the main halyard to stop that doing the same...
eddystone
Well-Known Member
I also don't think sailing with the family, even non-sailors equates to single handed. Single-handed means one pair of hands and all the limitations that go with that and no-one to share problems with even if they can't contribute much by way of solutions.
dune16
Well-Known Member
Yes, I take your point although I have a nagging doubt that they will be as willing to go out as regularly as I intend to so I'll plan on being billy-no-mates a lot of the time
After feedback on this thread and PM's I am of the opinion that the self-tacking jib probably is a good option but I am still not sold on the in-mast furler so will stick with the standard stack pack arrangement. Oddly (I never dream!) I also had a dream last night that I was taking delivery of a 389 so perhaps the smaller (slightly) boat is worth looking at again. Regard tech, I do like a gadget and work in the IT industry so will probably go with the latest 2017 spec "Ocean" electronics package from the factory. This currently consists of:
- 2 RAYMARINE i70s MULTIFUNCTION DISPLAYS
- 1 DEPTH-SPEED SENSOR
- 1 MASTHEAD WIND SENSOR
- 1 RAYMARINE RAY50 VHF
- 1 AIS 650 RAYMARINE TRANSCEIVER
- 1 RAYMARINE p70s AUTOPILOT + ACU400 CORE UNIT AND GYROCOMPAS
- 1 AUTOPILOT WIRELESS REMOTE CONTROL (SMART CONTROLLER)
- 1 GPS RAYMARINE eS75 MULTIFUNCTION TOUCHSCREEN DISPLAY WITH WIFI
- 1 SCANSTRUT PIVOTING GPS CONSOLE 7"
cmedsailor
Well-Known Member
Classic main, in mast main etc it doesn't matter what you have as long as you know how to use it properly single handed. I have in mast furling which I use alone day or night, day sailing or offshore with the rest of the family sleeping in their cabins. I have learned how to use it and I am careful. Since 2008 I never had any issues (touch wood for this) with neither the old one nor the replacement (by the way when the sail getts baggy is when problems begin; to unfurl it usually you pull directly from the sail. Even in this case you learn what to do). If I was changing my boat will I consider a classic main or an in mast again? Honestly, I don't mind. The in mast furling is nice and simple but the look of a full batten clasic main sail is really sexy! I will not mention perfomance difference because it's all relevant. You are limited to 2-3 reefs on a classic sail vs unlimited on a furling so you don't necessarily go faster with a classic main when it's time to reef. So to conclude, since it will be your first boat don't worry about the sail, just learn how to use it correctly.
What I could advice though is to have a boat that at least one of the two sails can be controlled from the helm. Don't just rely on a good autopilot (which is a MUST by the way). In a sudden gust you must be able to release fast one of the two sails (for a fractional usually the best will be the main sail but as a compromise even the genoa will do). And yes you could steer upwind if you can't reach them but it's good to be able to control at least one. Of course having said that, you will not have such problem with the Jeanneau 409/419 because both sails can be controlled from the helm.
By the way, the Jeanneau 409 is the number one boat in my dream list. I have just not convinced myself yet to say goodbye to my trusty and lovely current boat.
What I could advice though is to have a boat that at least one of the two sails can be controlled from the helm. Don't just rely on a good autopilot (which is a MUST by the way). In a sudden gust you must be able to release fast one of the two sails (for a fractional usually the best will be the main sail but as a compromise even the genoa will do). And yes you could steer upwind if you can't reach them but it's good to be able to control at least one. Of course having said that, you will not have such problem with the Jeanneau 409/419 because both sails can be controlled from the helm.
By the way, the Jeanneau 409 is the number one boat in my dream list. I have just not convinced myself yet to say goodbye to my trusty and lovely current boat.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Having just been through the same process, I echo most of what has been said above - except the doom mongers' comments on in mast furling, which does not reflect my experience over the last 15 years. Note that almost 100% of HRs over 37' have Selden in mast, and these are boats designed and used for ocean cruising.
Anyway, I looked at all the main AWBs specifically on ease of single handing and they all have their pros and cons. The key things to look at are handling in close quarters and a bow thruster is essential; anchoring - so electric windlass with remote (I have a Sidepower remote that does both the bow thruster and the windlass); easily handled sails, so in mast and small jib; ergonomic cockpit layout with both sheets easily worked from the wheel, and room to move around the cockpit easily.
Not all boats have all these features. Some have big wheels which limit movement, foresail winches that can't be worked from the wheel, mainsheets on the coachroof and large genoas which require a lot of grunt. Placement of engine controls, instruments and autopilot controls are also very variable. Twin wheels help many boats, particularly the ability to move around, but sometimes that leads to poor seating at the wheel.
On balance on these criteria Bavarias stood out as being closest to the ideal, although others all had their own attractions. The 37 in particular would suit very well. Generally more spacious than other similar size boats, a mainsail orientated rig, in mast with main sheet led back to the wheel and aft mounted sheet winches. I actually bought a 33 (to replace an earlier 37) as I have no need of a larger boat.
Might I suggest that you charter some of the boats you are looking at - most of them you should be able to find easily so that you get a feel for what works for you. As many have said actually managing a boat single handed when on passage is not difficult, but in my experience it is the hour or so at the beginning and the end of a passage which is challenging - setting and stowing sails, moving around on deck for anchoring or preparing for berthing, then parking the boat. My new boat is so much better in this respect that I actually look forward to tacking in and out of the harbour, whereas with the old one it was normal to motor out into clear water before setting sail.
Anyway, I looked at all the main AWBs specifically on ease of single handing and they all have their pros and cons. The key things to look at are handling in close quarters and a bow thruster is essential; anchoring - so electric windlass with remote (I have a Sidepower remote that does both the bow thruster and the windlass); easily handled sails, so in mast and small jib; ergonomic cockpit layout with both sheets easily worked from the wheel, and room to move around the cockpit easily.
Not all boats have all these features. Some have big wheels which limit movement, foresail winches that can't be worked from the wheel, mainsheets on the coachroof and large genoas which require a lot of grunt. Placement of engine controls, instruments and autopilot controls are also very variable. Twin wheels help many boats, particularly the ability to move around, but sometimes that leads to poor seating at the wheel.
On balance on these criteria Bavarias stood out as being closest to the ideal, although others all had their own attractions. The 37 in particular would suit very well. Generally more spacious than other similar size boats, a mainsail orientated rig, in mast with main sheet led back to the wheel and aft mounted sheet winches. I actually bought a 33 (to replace an earlier 37) as I have no need of a larger boat.
Might I suggest that you charter some of the boats you are looking at - most of them you should be able to find easily so that you get a feel for what works for you. As many have said actually managing a boat single handed when on passage is not difficult, but in my experience it is the hour or so at the beginning and the end of a passage which is challenging - setting and stowing sails, moving around on deck for anchoring or preparing for berthing, then parking the boat. My new boat is so much better in this respect that I actually look forward to tacking in and out of the harbour, whereas with the old one it was normal to motor out into clear water before setting sail.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I doubt if you have actually tried that !!!
Recipe for disaster. The ends of the battens come down too quickly & catch in the sails & jam in the sail making it difficult to stack the sail.
It is better if you pull the sail down manually & you can control the battens so they come down horizontally .
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Agree with most of the above that it's the parking not the sailing which is most awkward when alone. In-mast or slab is a compromise between sailing performance and convenience, but if you are not continuously tuning to the last quarter knot I doubt you would notice anything but the convenience.
Bowthruster - yes probably but with my Jeanneau 42.2 I've never needed it and have the common experience of being dinked or nearly dinked any number of times by bowthruster boats and when I hear the whine I'm on deck like a shot to help fend off. Basically because I think it's a fabulous occasional tool by those who already know how boats handle in tides, turning, side winds etc. but a dangerous tool when used (often charterers or new owners) by those who are trying to make the boat act like a train on tracks rather than a skater on ice.
But I would suggest it's all about preparation - ropes and fenders both sides and ready for any combination of cleat type and finger length - and a good like at wind and tide so a plan for going in and which rope to tie on first. I have to admit that the Med method of going in stern first even on finger berths is infinitely easier than going in bow first as you have a wide flat fendered surface bumping the end of the quay, right beside you with stern ropes ready for you to step out (no jumping needed)and tie on, walk around the finger with the middle line. Far easier for aborting the approach at the wrong moment and works even better if it's a tight berth.
Bowthruster - yes probably but with my Jeanneau 42.2 I've never needed it and have the common experience of being dinked or nearly dinked any number of times by bowthruster boats and when I hear the whine I'm on deck like a shot to help fend off. Basically because I think it's a fabulous occasional tool by those who already know how boats handle in tides, turning, side winds etc. but a dangerous tool when used (often charterers or new owners) by those who are trying to make the boat act like a train on tracks rather than a skater on ice.
But I would suggest it's all about preparation - ropes and fenders both sides and ready for any combination of cleat type and finger length - and a good like at wind and tide so a plan for going in and which rope to tie on first. I have to admit that the Med method of going in stern first even on finger berths is infinitely easier than going in bow first as you have a wide flat fendered surface bumping the end of the quay, right beside you with stern ropes ready for you to step out (no jumping needed)and tie on, walk around the finger with the middle line. Far easier for aborting the approach at the wrong moment and works even better if it's a tight berth.
ex-Gladys
Well-Known Member
Good point... one of the curses in my view of single handing is the style move to dual wheels BUT, only a single engine control. A mate has a 379, which I have been helping him with to get set for short handed sailing, and the engine control being on the far starboard side is ridiculous! Surely twin wheels requires an engine control on each pedestal, not on the opposite side of the cockpit
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Most I have seen have had battens. Those without have lost so much sail area that the system is even worse
The sail is basically just a flat bit of cloth.
Later designs do try to add some shape within the batten design
pvb
Well-Known Member
Then I'd suggest your experience isn't typical.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You obviously have not looked at a lot. Very few in mast have battens. They are a mixed blessing. Was discussing just this with one of the top sailmakers only last week and he is reluctant to use them, particularly in the latest smaller section masts where space is limited.
A boat designed for in mast from the start will have enough sail area to perform well - certainly my boat does. although the sail area is about 5% smaller than the battened equivalent any loss is more than made up by the ability to adjust sail area quickly to suit conditions rather than being stuck with only 3 choices of sail area, where the first reduction loses 25-39% of mainsail area.
Yngmar
Well-Known Member
Just to once again clear up the still widespread myths about in-mast furling:
* The modern in-mast furling stuff (Selden Furlin or Z-Spar) works very well.
* Sails have either no, or full length vertical battens, which do not jam (but you can't drop the sail in a hurry) and you typically have a straight leech with leech line, or can have a small roach with vertical battens if you're concerned about lost sail area (don't be).
* Like any other system, you need to RTFM and learn how to use it properly (YM had a good article on this a while ago). Boom angle in both dimensions is most important. Furling mains also prefer to be slightly powered up rather than flapping around during furling, which also makes your sail last longer.
I strongly suggest you sail on boats with both and then think about which you'd rather use single-handed. I'd be very surprised if that turns out to be a slab-reefed main.
* The modern in-mast furling stuff (Selden Furlin or Z-Spar) works very well.
* Sails have either no, or full length vertical battens, which do not jam (but you can't drop the sail in a hurry) and you typically have a straight leech with leech line, or can have a small roach with vertical battens if you're concerned about lost sail area (don't be).
* Like any other system, you need to RTFM and learn how to use it properly (YM had a good article on this a while ago). Boom angle in both dimensions is most important. Furling mains also prefer to be slightly powered up rather than flapping around during furling, which also makes your sail last longer.
I strongly suggest you sail on boats with both and then think about which you'd rather use single-handed. I'd be very surprised if that turns out to be a slab-reefed main.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Agree with everything you say, except that short battens are possible, and this is what I was discussing with the sailmaker. these allow some roach, don't jam and avoid the difficulties of actually installing a fully battened sail.
However, those who like the poster who questioned in mast some people think sailing is all about having 20 or so lines in the cockpit to pull around twisting the sail in search of that elusive fraction of a knot. If they have no experience of sailing with simple gear then you can't expect them to understand what it is all about.
Topcat47
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised no one has questioned jumping from a dinghy to a 41'er after a couple of courses. I sailed a keel boat for a year or so before buying a small cruiser. It's no marina queen and a tight fit for four, but I can handle it on my own in close quarters without a bow thruster. Simple is as simple does. Having had a roller Genoa jam up with a rolling turn on the drum, I'd not want to be in that position with an in-mast system. Stack-pack and slab reefing is what I have and I've deliberately not had it run to the cockpit as there were just too many pulleys needed to feed the lines. OK when brand new, but they get tight with age.
As I grow older, I value "small" but that's personal. Dom sails a big boat shorthanded and I admire his boat handling, but they both know what they're doing. I'd not think of going that big for a first boat though.
As I grow older, I value "small" but that's personal. Dom sails a big boat shorthanded and I admire his boat handling, but they both know what they're doing. I'd not think of going that big for a first boat though.
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
As an ex dinghy sailor I can sympathise with that! Lines to bend or straighten or stiffen or loosen everything. I had to resort to coloured lines and toggle ends to help sort them all out, even in my 20s it was a right trial. Racing, yes of course but for a cruising boat I don't see the need at all. I'm sold on in-mast.
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pagoda
Well-Known Member
I'm horrified by the concept of 20 lines to the cockpit! We have 8 regulars
port:
main halyard
topping lift
Furling line
Port side spinnaker halyard
Stbd:
STBD spinnaker halyard
Reef 1
Reef 1
Kicker.
That's plenty for normal. We don't use the regular Spinnaker much, preferring an asymmetric, the tack of which is on another small jammer.
Our mainsheet track lives in the cockpit, so we don't consider the sheet an outsider led in!
Once you are outside the marina/harbour it's pretty simple. An experienced dinghy sailor would adapt to the sailing itself very easily. Boat handling under engine/windage/tide/traffic/confined spaces is a whole different learning curve. Going big for your first yacht is upping the slope of that learning curve quite a lot.
Not that it can't be done.... tread carefully!
