Single hand a Jeanneau 409/419?

[dune16]

I am very "green" to sailing yachts although I have sailed dinghies for many years. I am doing my RYA competent crew and day skipper in the next few months. I have sailed on a few different yachts as basic crew. I may be jumping a few steps but I have the opportunity to purchase a boat. I plan to do this very soon after my RYA courses and then have a skipper sail with me (Solent area) on my own boat until I feel completely comfortable. My question is, I would expect most of my sailing will be on my own or with my family (who I doubt will actually want to be too involved in the actual sailing). I see that the Jeanneau SO range do keep getting mentioned as suitable for single handed sailing, I am just not sure if this is marketing hype instead of reality. So, what are peoples feelings on the ability single hand a 409/419? As I will most likely be purchasing new I can spec options that will make single handed sailing easier. For a long term keeper I want to make sure I get the spec right. I have read that in mast furling and self tacking jibs may be best avoided (although I would expect this make single hand sailing easier?)? Also I would spec a bow thruster to make getting into the marina berth a little easier. Any other suggestions?

Cheers

PS. I did also consider a smaller SO such as the 379/389 and even the 349 but when having a look at these they did feel so much smaller down below than the 409 and I ideally want to make this purchase a keeper and not need to sell and buy again in a few years, especially if the family are willing and eager passengers for cruising as my experience grows.

 

[jwilson]

No problem at all singlehanding once at sea, if you have a ram-type autopilot. Once sailing your only annoyance is the mainsheet on the coachroof, but stay forward of the wheel and bung on the autopilot for a few seconds to adjust the mainsheet, kicker etc. or tend genoa sheets.

The problems start whwn entering or leaving marina berths, the tighter the space the worse, and the windier the worse. Having gone from a heavy long-keeler to a modern Jeanneau (neither with bowthusters), I actually find more problems in tight manouevring with the newer boat, it blows sideways at low speeds so much faster.

 

[Bobc]

You can sail pretty-much any boat single-handed once at sea, assuming you have a good autohelm.

It's the parking that's the problem. To stick a boat that size into a marina berth on your own is quite tricky and you will need to have a good understanding of how the boat behaves, be very good at your boat handling generally, and have a mooring technique that works every time.

If you're going to be sailing with the family, then (assuming your wife is happy to help), you will be fine. The only thing to think about then becomes the height of the topsides and how far it is to jump down to the pontoon.

 

[pvb]

I have read that in mast furling and self tacking jibs may be best avoided (although I would expect this make single hand sailing easier?)? Also I would spec a bow thruster to make getting into the marina berth a little easier. Any other suggestions?

Ignore anything you've read! For single-handing a 41/42ft boat, in-mast furling will be an absolute boon, as would (to a lesser extent) a self-tacking jib.

There's nothing special about the Jeanneau; similar-sized boats from Beneteau, Bavaria, etc, will be equally easy to handle if suitably specified.

As others have said, you need a good autopilot, and I'd strongly suggest you have it factory-fitted rather than dealer-fitted, as you'll generally get a much better quality of installation. Indeed, I'd suggest you specify the majority of equipment as factory options, rather than dealer-fit.

You mention a bowthruster, which is pretty well essential. However, as you're planning to buy new I'd suggest you look at a combined bow/stern thruster installation, which will make marina berthing so much easier for a single-hander. Side-Power for example offer a variety of variable-speed bow and stern thrusters, plus a dual joystick control with a "hold" function so you can keep the boat pinned against a pontoon whilst you step off and sort out the mooring lines. To get an idea of how manoeuvrable this can make a boat, take a look at this little video of a Side-Power system on a 41ft Hallberg-Rassy.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The link below is to a PDF document with tips on single handed sailing; well worth reading:-

http://sfbaysss.net/resource/doc/SinglehandedTipsThirdEdition.pdf

In-mast reefing, roller reefing and self tacking jibs will make your life easier as a single hander and like all devices provided they are installed correctly, maintained and used properly will be reliable.

I agree with pvb that thrusters will make berthing easier, also electric anchor windlass with wireless remote control, auto helm with wireless remote control and of course integrated with plotter and GPS. All winches should have self tailing features which frees up hands.

Many single handers' successfully single hand without some of above items. I single hand my 41' yacht without auto helm, thrusters or in mast reefing.

 

[thesaintlyone]

Having just completed my competent crew and finally put my boat in the water albeit much smaller at 21ft than what your considering I can promise you that single-handing even a little 21ft boat into a marina berth is as others have said the most difficult part of it all. its not really covered in depth on the competent crew. simple fact is that single handed you simply don't have enough hands to do everything needed. I would suggest rather than having someone come out with you for the sailing aspect get some extra lessons after the competent crew on getting in and out of your marina.
I would also suggest talking to the marina staff and getting to know your berth neighbours as they may become a great source of support as mine indeed were.

www.vagabondtravels.co

 

[Yngmar]

I'm usually single-handing my 40 ft Bavaria with centre cockpit. Key difference is that my mainsheet is at the boom end, aft of the helmsman seat, which makes it fairly easy to gybe even without autopilot. The controls on the coachroof are only trim ones - kicker, outhaul and the (unused due to spring rod kicker) topping lift, in addition to the main furling loop. The genoa furler is also lead back to the helm (although the rope clutch is in a less practical location at the rail - I keep meaning to change that or add a cam cleat).

Furling main is immensely helpful in staying in the cockpit. Tacking the genoa is easy (make sure you can reach the winches from the helm), so self-tacking jib I'd see as very optional. A good autopilot is a must, if you want to go offshore possibly even a backup one or a wind vane.

Good to learn boat handling early - make sure your RYA instructor understands your desires and lets you practice mooring up single-handed in a bit of wind. Can highly recommend Duncan Wells' Stres-free sailing, which is packed with useful advice for handling and mooring a big boat solo. Read it after your training, not before.

The sailing is the easy part compared to the mooring up. Key to successful single-handed mooring is preparation and knowing your boat. Also lots of running about, i.e. before going into a marina, have your fenders tied on the inside of the rail and set up mooring lines on both sides (slipknot on the outside of the rail, so they can easily be grabbed from the pontoon by you or if available a helper), then when you're in the protected waters just pop on the autopilot for a few seconds, toss fenders over the rail, go back and adjust steering, toss them over on the other side, etc. If you're kitting out a new boat, go for the wireless autopilot remote control - saves you much of that running around.

If you're a bit worried about the conditions, don't be afraid of asking the marina for someone to take a line for you. You're paying enough for that berth

Know your propwalk - saildrives do have it in astern. Use it to your advantage instead of fighting it and trying to go the other way - for me (kicks to starboard) this means going out of the fairway backwards, but that is much easier than trying to turn the other way when the boat does not want to go that way.

And practice. Pick a calm day with slack tide and just maneuver around in tight spaces until you get the hang of it. Directing propwash sideways (in forward only) with the rudder, then putting it in reverse before it picks up speed is a powerful aide that many bowthrustees seem to have forgotten all about. On a fin keeler, you can do a standing turn using just that (I don't have a bowthruster, so I had to learn). Or buy the Jen "360 Docking" option, which rotates the saildrive and can move the boat sideways with a joystick, like a tug boat. No skill required, although you'll also miss out on the immense satisfaction of having moored your boat without such gimmicks (and the gelcoat repairs when not).

It's great not having to wait for others to come along when I want to go sail, and less stressful if you can just do it yourself if crew turns out to be somewhat less adept at slipping a line. Although if you do have crew, teach them how to tie a fender, slip and make off a line and tack the genoa - they'll feel more involved and will stand in your way less often

 

[pagoda]

The link below is to a PDF document with tips on single handed sailing; well worth reading:-

http://sfbaysss.net/resource/doc/SinglehandedTipsThirdEdition.pdf

In-mast reefing, roller reefing and self tacking jibs will make your life easier as a single hander and like all devices provided they are installed correctly, maintained and used properly will be reliable.

I agree with pvb that thrusters will make berthing easier, also electric anchor windlass with wireless remote control, auto helm with wireless remote control and of course integrated with plotter and GPS. All winches should have self tailing features which frees up hands.

Many single handers' successfully single hand without some of above items. I single hand my 41' yacht without auto helm, thrusters or in mast reefing.

Having gone from many years of dinghies straight to 35ft about 8 years ago I have some comments.
As clearly pointed out- sailing a bigger boat in open water is easy, albeit a bit lonely when solo. Close quarters manoeuvring needs experience of your own boat and plenty practice. I doubt in mast reefing is needed- plan ahead before it's needed. The last time for reefing is the first time you think about it! Particularly solo. Anchoring and mooring buoys in moderate weather are no huge problem, but need a little extra thought. We chartered a 409 in Grenada last year. It sailed very well, considering the 24-28Kts trade winds all the time. High freeboard is good for headroom in the cabin, but bad for catching the wind when doing something delicate. I have no experience of thrusters, so I have to rely on normal boat handling skills. An autohelm will let you hoist or drop a main quite easily, or tack. I would hesitate about going too high tech, since the more electrics you have the more problem potential will exist in future. Unless you are thoroughly capable with electronics.( or have very deep pockets!)
It is quite feasible to have a lot of fun in a boat under 40ft. However all the empty cabins and 2nd heads may seem less useful in practice once you go for something bigger on your own.?
I would suggest you sail for a good bit beyond CC before choosing.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Very interesting this. On the question of in-mast reefing, my own (modest) experience is that in addition to actual reefing, it's also much easier (and arguably safer) to stow the main from the cockpit without having to stand atop the cabin roof to flake. Lazyjacks and stackpack ease that a lot. .

 

[pagoda]

Very interesting this. On the question of in-mast reefing, my own (modest) experience is that in addition to actual reefing, it's also much easier (and arguably safer) to stow the main from the cockpit without having to stand atop the cabin roof to flake. Lazyjacks and stackpack ease that a lot. .

On a 409, the boom is pretty high,so the sail flakes itself fairly well. My moral of "reef immediately when it crosses your mind" generally allows it to be done in safety. Putting off reefing is a bad concept, especially solo.

 

[pvb]

Very interesting this. On the question of in-mast reefing, my own (modest) experience is that in addition to actual reefing, it's also much easier (and arguably safer) to stow the main from the cockpit without having to stand atop the cabin roof to flake. Lazyjacks and stackpack ease that a lot. .

Generally, those without in-mast furling say it's not necessary; those with in-mast furling say it's indispensable! I single-hand a lot, and I'm firmly in the in-mast camp, having had it on my boats for the last 30 years.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

On a 409, the boom is pretty high,so the sail flakes itself fairly well. My moral of "reef immediately when it crosses your mind" generally allows it to be done in safety. Putting off reefing is a bad concept, especially solo.

Yes agreed, my point was that in-mast reefing (or furling if you prefer) could be safer and easier than flaking or stackpack plus ties/cover, no matter whether its for reefing purposes, or for furling at the end of the sail....

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Generally, those without in-mast furling say it's not necessary; those with in-mast furling say it's indispensable! I single-hand a lot, and I'm firmly in the in-mast camp, having had it on my boats for the last 30 years.

Thanks, useful. I'm planning to have it on my next boat.

 

[pagoda]

Thanks, useful. I'm planning to have it on my next boat.

Absolutely fine by me.... I came from a dinghy and windsurfing past, so a fully battened taffeta/laminate main is my preference for performance and good sailing. That does not come with an in mast option!

 

[TQA]

No real problems in the sailing as other have said. The only essential being a good autopilot.

If the Jeanneau 409/419 has an option to fit an inner forestay then having a cutter rig with a 100% max staysail makes life a lot easier when short tacking. Roll up the genny and the staysail is easy to handle

If you are going to keep it in a marina then I would regard a midships cleat and a bow thruster as essentials. Not required if you are going to keep it on a mooring. F*** U* on a mooring and you go round again, F*** U* in a marina and you better have good insurance and a good yard on tap.

If you intend to anchor a lot an electric windlass with cockpit control makes life easier.

I dislike in mast reefing for singlehanded sailing as when it goes wrong it can be difficult or impossible to fix at sea on your own. Slab reefing and full length battens with lazy jacks and a stackpack works for me. Note that Jeanne Socrates has a full batten main with slab reefing.

Yes when in mast furling works perfectly you have easy mainsail handling but at the expense of a poor shape even when new.

I have been single handing a 44 ft cutter for 8 years as an old fart.

 

[dune16]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I basically want all the options I can have to make single handed easier but also with a view to have good performance later down the line as experience grows. The in-mast option seems to limit that somewhat. Self-tacking jib is certainly an option. I will also look into the Jeanneau 360 option as I will be keeping her in a Marina (possibly Haslar) and am fully aware of the risk of pranging it and hitting my wallet where it hurts. I plan to do the CC and Day Skipper before purchasing the boat unless one of the dealers make me an offer hard to refuse (and with the £ being pretty poor at the moment I doubt that's going to happen) and in which case I would get assistance sailing her down to my chosen marina and either let her sit there until the courses are done or have some personal tuition in the meantime. The 389 would probably be the more sensible option but the family all felt much more comfortable on the 419 so the 389 would take a lot more convincing It's a big investment so I don't want to have to buy again in a few years.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... I would hesitate about going too high tech ...

Of course, Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters were designed to be sailed by 'a boy' single handed and at 40' they were the epitome of high tech in their day. I have sailed one on a day sail and they are truly easy to sail.

I disagree with hi tech being potentially more problematic in the future, especially if it is fitted when new and integrate and most importantly maintained.

It all comes down to the attitude of the new sailor, if the OP wants to sail solo is prepared to buy a new boat, is prepared to look after it to the standard required for reliability then I think the OP should take full advantage of modern technologies. After all the purpose of technology improvements is to increase productivity by making tasks efficient and likely safer.

At the end of the day its up to the OP and the style of sailing he wants to i.e. Pilot Cutters or Jeanneau 409/419.

 

[Ric]

Plenty of good advice already on thread. All I can add is that as a single-handed offshore Jonny no-mates, reliability and redundancy are my priorities on my 32ft Jeanneau. A simple easily handled rig, in-cockpit reefing, decent autopilot, boom-brake are all obvious. But the real key to single-handing is a reliable boat with redundant systems. That means spending a lot more money on maintenance, and doubling critical systems. I have installed an inner forestay and staysail. I have two autopilots which can work entirely independently if necessary. Above all, I maintain the boat myself and without compromise.

 

[Daydream believer]

Single handing is just that - single handing. If you are talking about sailing with the family who will be sitting below, that is not single handing because in an emergency they can come & hold the wheel, grab a line, tie on a fender act as look outs etc .
Single handing a yacht at sea is easy once under way but approaching a port is where it gets awkward. Forumites mention berthing in ones own berth but in the last 7 weeks I have entered my own berth twice & strange berths 18 times so one has to be a bit more aware than suggested. Sometimes one has to moor in a box ( stern to poles or a buoy as in Ostend or Holland), or raft up, sometimes the pontoons are very short. One does not always know until one gets there.

In addition problems can occur. For instance yesterday I found my engine was not drawing water as the impeller had failed. Going below in 24 kts wind to change it in a boat that would not heave too made me sea sick & in the river Blackwater I soon ran out of room so had to keep coming on deck to change course. A simple issue became a nightmare. It would have been worse coming into a strange area like Treguier where I had been a few weeks earlier.

Getting the main stuck with in mast reefing ( & I have seen this happen a number of times) can be a stressful time for a single hander & the bigger the main the more difficult it becomes. I certainly would not consider it. Certainly i could not stand constantly looking at the the poor sail shape all day long.
A failed furler on a large genoa might mean dropping the sail. Try that on a 40 ft boat in a gale.
So whilst single handing can be easy - I do it all the time & do 2000 miles a year in a 31 ft boat- every year I have at least one drama when something goes wrong.
That is when size can overpower the sailor but at 69 yrs old perhaps I am getting weak. I recently looked at changing to a 37 ft boat for more comfort but when i studied the increase in sails etc I changed my mind.

There has been comment about self tacking sails. I have a self tacker & a genoa. In 13 years I have only used the genoa when racing with a crew. I find the self tacker very good & off wind I have down haulers fitted to set it better or use a cruising chute. I would recommend the self tacking option every time, but then I am a biased Hanse owner

A modern 37 ft boat is plenty big enough for a family of 4 with the occasional guest. Some models are fast & stable with all the items that are needed for modern comfort.Being a Hanse owner I know of several Hanse 37ft's that have crossed the Atlantic & i am sure lots of similar sized other AWB's have done it in comfort as well.

Personally I see little need for some of the bloated oversized yachts that are currently being sold for small families - but to each his own

 

[Neil_Y]

Stack pack and lazy jacks work far better on a system that has roller cars and a fully battened main. I could drop the main or reef quickly and easily with only one rope holding it all up. When you have roller systems and they break it's rare that you can then easily get rid of sail. I've sailed with in mast and rotating boom systems.

Jib definitely get self tacking.

Look at setting up a system where you can pull up the anchor from the cockpit and let it out, I've used a system where the anchor could be pulled up using a powered genoa winch. Useful if getting out of a busy anchorage as you can be on the steering and engine as it clears the bottom and you drift off.

Extra fenders are a good option for berthing and short ish mooring lines attached to centre cleat so you can quickly get a spring on and then let the engine hold you alongside.