Side Power (Sleipner) Bow Thruster issue

[Ammonite]

I have SP75ti from circa 2009(?) which is producing a fair amount of carbon dust. It works but is cutting out after about 30 secs continuous use due to the thermal cut out. Its rated for 3 mins continuous use. Once it cools its good for another 30 seconds (and no, I don't normally use it for that long!).
My assumption is this is due to the brushes as while there is plenty of life in them they are not moving freely and I was only able to remove two and suspect I will damage the other two if I try and remove them. Is this a sensible assumption? My second question is where is the best / cheapest place to source a decent replacement set as the the Sleipner dealers want circa £200 which seems a lot, although I understand that dc brushes are more involved than ac ones. Thanks

 

[C08]

I have a Sidepower thruster, smaller installed 2015 so I am watching this post with interest. No carbon dust yet which is a good thing as my wife keps her sailing clothes hanging in the locker above the thruster!

 

[Caladh]

30 seconds continuous use ……….?

 

[Ammonite]

30 seconds continuous use ……….?

Which was why I added....
"(and no, I don't normally use it for that long!)"
although you do find out when the clutch fails in your saildrive and you are left drifting in a marina
It works fine for a few short 3 or 4 second bursts which is what I tend to use it for but it still shouldn't be depositing dust all over the place and the brushes should move freely.

 

[srm]

is where is the best / cheapest place to source a decent replacement set

Just a thought, has it had any maintenance since 2009?
If not then £200 seems quite reasonable to keep the machine running efficiently. I discovered a long time ago that "cheapest" does not equal "best" unless you are comparing prices for identical items. On too many occasions I have bought the cheaper item, only to replace it a short while later with what I should have paid for the first time around.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

I have SP75ti from circa 2009(?) which is producing a fair amount of carbon dust. It works but is cutting out after about 30 secs continuous use due to the thermal cut out. Its rated for 3 mins continuous use. Once it cools its good for another 30 seconds (and no, I don't normally use it for that long!).
My assumption is this is due to the brushes as while there is plenty of life in them they are not moving freely and I was only able to remove two and suspect I will damage the other two if I try and remove them. Is this a sensible assumption? My second question is where is the best / cheapest place to source a decent replacement set as the the Sleipner dealers want circa £200 which seems a lot, although I understand that dc brushes are more involved than ac ones. Thanks

Just had a quick "GOOGLE" for SP75 brushes. plenty of alternative suppliers but not alternative price! They look like unique design for that application so you may be stuck! Brushes are complex in composition so you have to be careful. Get the wrong ones and you can in the most serious instance cause damage to the commutator or just bad commutation and brush wear with resultant inefficiency of the unit.

 

[Ammonite]

Just had a quick "GOOGLE" for SP75 brushes. plenty of alternative suppliers but not alternative price! They look like unique design for that application so you may be stuck! Brushes are complex in composition so you have to be careful. Get the wrong ones and you can in the most serious instance cause damage to the commutator or just bad commutation and brush wear with resultant inefficiency of the unit.

Thanks Alex. Most seem to list a set of 8 but apparently they used a range of motors and mine uses 4. According to the Sleipner dealer I've spoken to in Plymouth, Sleipner can supply them, in 25 weeks! I didn't ask them to confirm the price. I think my best bet is going to be a motor rewinds/ refurb specialist who can get the brushes made up for me, as well as checking the commutator.

 

[Ammonite]

Just a thought, has it had any maintenance since 2009?
If not then £200 seems quite reasonable to keep the machine running efficiently. I discovered a long time ago that "cheapest" does not equal "best" unless you are comparing prices for identical items. On too many occasions I have bought the cheaper item, only to replace it a short while later with what I should have paid for the first time around.

It's had a completely new gear box, prior to my ownership but other than that I don't know the history. I get what you mean though but I'm assuming the motor was bought in by Sidepower so I was hoping I could identify who made it originally.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

Thanks Alex. Most seem to list a set of 8 but apparently they used a range of motors and mine uses 4. According to the Sleipner dealer I've spoken to in Plymouth, Sleipner can supply them, in 25 weeks! I didn't ask them to confirm the price. I think my best bet is going to be a motor rewinds/ refurb specialist who can get the brushes made up for me, as well as checking the commutator.

Good Idea. I was going to add a note to say that the commutator may need some TLC . If the copper segments are worn the mica insulation can stand proud and be destructive to brushes, never mind the sparking! May need a skim and undercutting, or not, as the case may be. good luck.

 

[Ammonite]

Just spoke to these guys who can supply me what I need. There's a £75 minimum charge but they can turn the brushes around in a couple of days. I just need to send them one of the old ones so they can test the grade and make it to size. I don't have a price yet but it should be less than I've seen elsewhere.
Carbon Brushes Suppliers manufacturers of carbon brushes
Their spares catalogue also contains a great visual guide when it comes to the state of the brushes and commutator (towards the end of the pdf download)
www.engineeringcarbonproducts.com/carbon-brushes-spares_catalogue.php

 

[rotrax]

Just a thought, has it had any maintenance since 2009?
If not then £200 seems quite reasonable to keep the machine running efficiently. I discovered a long time ago that "cheapest" does not equal "best" unless you are comparing prices for identical items. On too many occasions I have bought the cheaper item, only to replace it a short while later with what I should have paid for the first time around.

£200 is extortionate for carbon brushes.

The dust might be caused by the brushes being sticky. I had exactly the same with an Italian made small 12v motor on a Raymarine autopilot. The brush boxes had no slot for the springs. Once they had worn 2mm the spring hit the brush box and could apply no more pressure. This caused dust and a dirty commutator. A small amount of spring reshaping fixed that!

You might find suitable brushes on ebay. The ones I bought as spares-never used-for the Raymarine ram were meant for a VW Golf windscreen wiper motor. They were of the same dimensions and cost 12 quid posted.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

£200 is extortionate for carbon brushes.

The dust might be caused by the brushes being sticky. I had exactly the same with an Italian made small 12v motor on a Raymarine autopilot. The brush boxes had no slot for the springs. Once they had worn 2mm the spring hit the brush box and could apply no more pressure. This caused dust and a dirty commutator. A small amount of spring reshaping fixed that!

You might find suitable brushes on ebay. The ones I bought as spares-never used-for the Raymarine ram were meant for a VW Golf windscreen wiper motor. They were of the same dimensions and cost 12 quid posted.

Were they the same composition, hardness, etc? As I said previously the wrong brushes can cause more harm than good!

 

[Ammonite]

Were they the same composition, hardness, etc? As I said previously the wrong brushes can cause more harm than good!

It looks as if the brushes for the 4 brush version of the SP75TI are no longer available off the shelf so having them made is my only option. Were they readily available I'd expect them to cost something like this if buying direct without the dealer markup, so it will be interesting to see what my bespoke version will cost.
Store | engineeringcarbonproducts.co.uk

If you do stumble across anyone who has some old stock sat on a shelf the Sleipner set I need is BRUSH-04S

 

[ean_p]

It looks as if the brushes for the 4 brush version of the SP75TI are no longer available off the shelf so having them made is my only option. Were they readily available I'd expect them to cost something like this if buying direct without the dealer markup, so it will be interesting to see what my bespoke version will cost.
Store | engineeringcarbonproducts.co.uk

If you do stumble across anyone who has some old stock sat on a shelf the Sleipner set I need is BRUSH-04S

I don't know about old stock but many suppliers carry lots of stock on the shelf. You might contact them quoting the dimensions of your current brushes and adding several mm to the now worn length. Here's one such...... Watson Electric Ltd. there are many others...!
Its been a lot of years since I was playing with brush gear and when in a fix buying from outside the company to get out of the fix. The principle issue is that a replacement must fit and slide easily within the holder yet not turn or wedge in the holder. It was common practice to 'adjust' the size of similar brushes if you had some to hand, though a filthy game to play ! In terms of the material the principle issue is whether they should be 'hard' (in which case they wear slowly but wear the comm more over extended time), or soft in which case they are easy on the comm but wear quite quickly. The company I worked for at the time both sold and rented equipment and service engineers were required to fit hard brushes to the rental equipment and soft brushes to the bought equipment in order to maximise income. The condition of the comm is crucial in the life of the brushes and so make certain that you clean / have it cleaned well before replacement and get into a habit of tweeking the brushes to make sure they are free at least once or twice a year and suck out ( don't blow!) the carbon dust in and around the brush gear etc.
If when the motor is running again you have any 'significant' sparking under the brushes have the motor checked over as there may be additional issues that caused or may be caused by the splashed / damaged comm.

 

[Ammonite]

I don't know about old stock but many suppliers carry lots of stock on the shelf. You might contact them quoting the dimensions of your current brushes and adding several mm to the now worn length. Here's one such...... Watson Electric Ltd. there are many others...!
Its been a lot of years since I was playing with brush gear and when in a fix buying from outside the company to get out of the fix. The principle issue is that a replacement must fit and slide easily within the holder yet not turn or wedge in the holder. It was common practice to 'adjust' the size of similar brushes if you had some to hand, though a filthy game to play ! In terms of the material the principle issue is whether they should be 'hard' (in which case they wear slowly but wear the comm more over extended time), or soft in which case they are easy on the comm but wear quite quickly. The company I worked for at the time both sold and rented equipment and service engineers were required to fit hard brushes to the rental equipment and soft brushes to the bought equipment in order to maximise income. The condition of the comm is crucial in the life of the brushes and so make certain that you clean / have it cleaned well before replacement and get into a habit of tweeking the brushes to make sure they are free at least once or twice a year and suck out ( don't blow!) the carbon dust in and around the brush gear etc.
If when the motor is running again you have any 'significant' sparking under the brushes have the motor checked over as there may be additional issues that caused or may be caused by the splashed / damaged comm.

Thanks for the detailed reply. The supplier you referenced looks very similar to the one I referred to in post 10#
If they don't have a match they can make one within 24 hours. They are also able to radius the brushes to suit the commutator if I give them the diameter to aid the bedding in.

 

[rotrax]

Were they the same composition, hardness, etc? As I said previously the wrong brushes can cause more harm than good!

It depends on the use/power of the motor. I was I/C of a Lucas service depot, the largest in the country. Our busy workshop, with over 20 staff, would repair hundreds of motors, not just Lucas and CAV.

The foreman once got a very old -1930's- motor going that was French. No spares available. He made the brushes by carefully rubbing down larger ones with abrasive paper. It worked and continued working. Probably still is working!

A low powered electric motor, wiper motor for example would have different brushes to a heavy duty starter motor. Dynamo's/low powered jobs will have soft carbon brushes, the ones that give off black dust.

Heavy Duty starter motors invariably use composite sintered brushes with a heavy copper content.

Unless these two types of brushes are interchanged, in the real world, little damage will occur.

After 50 plus years repairing magneto's, dynamo's, starter motors and ancillary motors I speak with some experience of the subject!

After all, the technology is well over 100 years old. A motor is a motor, only the control mechanisms differ. Put the right 'type' of brush in, it will work and be reliable if the springs, brush boxes, windings and commutator are all good.

 

[Ammonite]

Just had the quote through from ecp. £135 inc VAT and Delivery for four custom brushes including profiling the ends to suit the commutator which should make the final bedding in a bit easier. They are also throwing in a comm stick. They will be here in a couple of days. Very happy, assuming they fit