Should yacht racing be restricted ?

[jac]

Martin in some ways you are arguing the case for segregation. You are saying that to avoid confrontation cruisers should stay away from buoys and start lines.

A perfectly sensible and rational course that many of us would do anyway.

But that effectively puts areas out of bounds of cruisers. Again we accept that that might be necessary - we already having moving areas of concerns round large vessels so why not racing fleets.

So cruisers are then forced into the areas where people aren't racing. The problem then starts when the next race, perhaps by a different club, occupies an area previously used exclusively by cruisers.

To make that work clubs would have to agree to limit large fleets to certain areas only and keep certain areas free for all. I.e. Segregation

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the freedom of the sea etc but freedom comes with responsibilities. In this case the responsibility to obey IRPCS. And I know from experience that racers in the majority don't.

I've never pushed the point as far as max power but last season had 2 very near misses. Both Port /Starboard where I was very obvious and had to take very late avoiding action to not crash.

If then racers are not going to obey IRPCS in close quarters situations, our freedoms are not there as we are not free to sail where we will. Therefore are we not better off accepting some voluntary limitations (i.e. the mainland shore near brambles bank ) out of the racing line to encourage racers to leave some of the solent free to cruisers.

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[bigmart]

I understand what you say. I suppose my reply would boil down into two parts.

1) If an incident does occur then the IRPCS should be upheld by all conderned. If this is the case then an offending boat will be held resposible for the skippers actions. Remember, it does not much matter what some Gorilla on the foredeck yells, it is the actions of the helm under direction of the Skipper that counts.

2) Accepting regulation, in this case controlling the access to the water by a type of user, is the first chink in our armour that will allow, those that wish to control us, to gain a foothold. There are still people calling for boat driving licenses, even though we have one of the best safety records in the world, ABP have only recently lost their claim on the Western Solent & the RYA have given up on the Dibden Bay enquiry, from what I recall this was much on the basis that free access for all was the most desireable.

If you're a cruiser what does it matter if you have to make a slight detour one day. The next time you pass that way, chances are, you can take a different route again & maybe sail over the previously denied area. I may have misunderstood you but some of what you say could result in permanent no-go areas for certain types of boat.

I just feel that "If it ain't broke, why fix it" works here. Collisions of the type suggested are rare enough for the current legislation to cope with. There are plenty of people who would like to control us. Why do it ourselves & draw attention when it ain't necessary.

Martin

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[hlb]

Believe me. I am no advocate of regulation. For you Solent lot, maybe you have got used to where and when these races take place. So can avoid them. A couple of years ago I left Plymouth, did a sweep round Britainy and CI, eventualy found myself cruising up the Solent. Turned out it was Cowes week. Only discovered this by the mayhem it was causing. I have no interest in racing. Bit poinless in a power boat that can easily beat the lot of them if so wished. But just for the sake of the arguement. Lets say I joined in this race, Just for fun. Passed them all within inches. I have loads of control. Stopped dead, spun round, set off in the oposite direction and did the same again. Not doing anything wrong you understand. I'm just having a race!!

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Haydn

 

[jac]

I know what you're saying but the crux of it is your sentence "If you're a cruiser, what does it matter if you have to make a slight detour one day"

1) If i'm a cruiser and have rights under IRPCS I shouldn't have to make detour at all as the racing fleet should get out of my way. Sadly though it won't ever happen so I will have to make the detour.

2) If its cowes week or RTIR it won't be a slight detour. It will mean the entire solent is out of bounds. The racers occupy the entire width forming a wall I would be unable to penetrate.

True, I could do what several other posters have suggested and stay away from the solent at those times but Roma is kept at Shamrock Quay so I would effectively have to accept that for those periods i could not use my boat at all. Surely that is worse than having the key areas of the solent restricted.

I'm not suggesting formal legislation or ABP to draw up banned areas etc. But maybe some code of conduct drawn up by say the RYA which states

a) Cruisers will try and avoid racing fleets
b) Where cruisers can't avoid fleets racers will abide by IRPCS
c) Race commitees must set races with due regard to the rights of other uses and ensure that cruisers have sufficient space to go round the fleets.
d) Race commitees will police racer/cruiser incidents as forcefully as they do racer/racer incidents.

Now i'm not suggesting by that that race committees are banned from setting courses in any particular area but that they should be setting them so that for example the course is long and thin rather than short and fat - i.e they only use 1/2 the width of the solent rather than having marks near either shore requiring the entire fleet to cross the path of through traffic.

You will always get the stubborn skippers that won't do anything to avoid others but by keeping racing fleets clear of some of the channel you will encourage the non racers to stay clear in the first place.

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[qsiv]

No<g> I'm not related to BigMart! I certainly wouldnt wish a rig failure on you - I havent had mine fall down, but I did recover a dead person who had been knocked overboard by rig failure.

I'm simply not in favour of regulation - in my experience it is seldom appropriate. Here in Jersey we have innumerable Frenchmen sailing over from France. By definition they have all passed the 'offshore' standard (as Jersey is more than 10 km from a safe port), and equally their boats will meet the appropriate offshore standard. Each and every year the rescue services have to fish people out of the rocks along the South East coast (the Gutters) who have seen the power station chimney, and steered straight for it. On a number of occasions the only 'chart' they have had is either a Michelin Guide (I sympathise, my wife 'corrects' my charts with Michelin Rosettes to signify where she would like to anchor....) or just Notre Livre de Bord (an equivalent of Reeds/McMillans), in the full anticipation that the harbour chartlet will be sufficient.

Regulation doesnt improve the breed per se, all it does is allow the individual to absolve themselves from responsibilty, as they have 'met the required standard'.... My parents started the first sailing school in the UK, just after WWII, (the original school boat was Stormalong, as sailed by Peter Cumberlidge in recent times) and as such I was brought up in a culture of enthusing people not just with sailing, but also with the risks and responsiblities. My step father was a merchantseaman (from the days of square riggers) and so I was also introduced to the difference between going to sea as a job and for pleasure. He later became RORC Class 1 champion, and I was given an insight into sailing from a racing perspective. My father however was drowned as a result of a collision at sea, and above all I was taught to respect the power and danger of the sea and the obligations and responsibilities it places on all of us who go to sea - particularly when we go to sea for own pleasure.

I certainly wouldnt be in favour of segmenting the sea for specific purposes such as racing. The next logical step would be for ABP to close the Solent to recreational craft, and for the MCA to prohibit yachtsmen from crossing TSS lanes. Lymington to Cherbourg via EC1 just isnt appealing. As for Brighton - well they'd have know where to go. Of copurse everybody north of the the Thames would have to stay there. The opportunities for political interferece would become almost unlimited.

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[warrior40]

Hey, I'm young, well under 30, I am courteous, and I race and cruise . When racing and my pals refer to other yachts as 'Shitters' I tell them off, I say, hey, that's us lot on a different day!

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[TheBoatman]

Whilst I agree that your interpretation of the Colregs is correct, IMHO racers are using that loop hole to gain advantage. Even if they are the give way vessel they stand on and force the stand on vessel to give way. After which they feel perfectly within their rights to hurl abuse to any vessel that doesn't give way. They also know that most non racers do not bother to contact the race protest committee after the event which only encourges them more. It's a shame that there is not an easier system of stopping these guys from being reckless, if they got disquailfied more often they may think twice about doing it.

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[qsiv]

Whilst I'm sure there are a small number of racers who take advantage of the good will of some, many are perfectly polite. Those who engage in abusive behaviour should be sought out and excluded - I fear it is just an unpleasant feature of modern life, like what is euphemistically termed road rage (perpetrators should be consistently sued for a breach of the peace), which is nothing more than badly behaved arrogant people who are unable to control their tempers. Giving it a specific name merely indulges the perpetrators in the manner of so many modern euphemism where we some are too afraid to use direct terms. My current pet hate (for reasons that some are aware of) is the habit of the health professionals to refer to suicide is 'self harm'. By imputation murder then becomes 'harm by others', Why not call things by their right names!

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[DeeGee]

DM. Sorry to be so long in responding...

I already said I wouldn't defend my ignorance, so I am not about to do that.

Now seen the full weight of all this tripe, and see my little contribution was totally overlooked or ignored.

The point I was making was that the RYA are in error for not ensuring that IRPCS are not 'taught' in the racing syllabus. This is a cruiser-dominated forum, how many know that an overtaking boat doesn't exist in racing?

The 'them and us' debates inevitably engender the regulation argument and I agree with BigMart that this would be the thin end of a wedge. Stinkies vs RagAndString, Racers vs Cruisers, PWC vs The Rest, ABP vs everybody... plenty of reasons to gripe about the shared use of a limited resource, and enough rules already.

Both IRPCS and Racing Rules require boats to avoid collision, and that is what they should do, full stop.

Courtesy means we should make little alterations to help others enjoy their day - not a rule, but good manners and decent behaviour. If there is a whole fleet, and you can't avoid one for the others, sobeit. And if someone gets shirty when his adrenaline is up and his blinkers are working too well - then wave your teacup at him with a smile - he'll either laugh or have a stroke and the world will still turn.


<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[bigmart]

First may I say to JAC that, as I have been away for a couple of days, I am posting this response to several posts & not singling him out for a personal attack.

I think we are getting things a little out of proportion here. I my experience, please understand that I am always speaking from that viewpoint, when one wishes to avoid racing boats all it takes is a good lookout & early thinking. The previously mentioned Yellow Racing Marks are documented on most charts. As one approaches a Mark it is usually easy to see if a racing fleet is headed in that direction. A small course adjustment to leave the buoy 2-3 hundred yards on your beam, given a reasoned appraisal of the likely course of the racing fleet after leaving the Mark is all that is required. There is no need for major No-Go Areas anywhere.

Last Summer, in my incompetence, I sailed right across the mouth of the Medina, in the middle of Cowes week. My track took me through two start lines. The gathering boats politely pointed me in the safe direction that allowed me to avoid any problems. I must confess that is how I find most racers & how I think it should be.

A couple of years previously I was privledged to con a near 60 Ft Ketch through the Solent, from the Needles to Portsmouth, with a crew of 15-16 year olds on board. You will appreciate that this is not an easily manouvreable boat. We passed by several racing fleets who were involved in various types of racing, some over short distances & some longer. By careful preparation & a desire not to have both our or the racers enjoyment of the water there was no frightening incident & no great feeling that there were any No-Go Areas. In many ways the antics of the racers provided an interesting side show for my crew.

It has been said elsewhere that with freedom comes responsibility. In my view there is a new form of almost "cowardice" amongs many sections of our society where frightened, or maybe intimidated, there is a great ruch to pass this responsibility on to a higher authority. In this case it is regulate others, sometimes it is the demand for licensing. As, hopefully intelligent, Adults shurely the current regulations are more than adequate for such problems as may occur.

The concept of "this is my bit of water & the Col. Regs say I'm right so I'm standing on." Is a little uneccessary here, isn't it, not to mention, as weve already established, against the Col. Regs. . Besides whats the use of being right when you've got a big hole in your boat. I know you can claim on the insurance but I would rather not have the hassle.

Perhaps that is the crux of the whole argument. I go sailing to relax. My working week is all the competition I can stand. My sole purpose, when on the water, is to relax & enjoy the day. With this attitude it is easy to let the pushy racer types have their way. At least when I get to my destination I will feel relaxed.

There you go Anger Management, thats whats needed.

Martin

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[jac]

Firtsly thanks for not making it personal - I wouldn't have taken offence anyway

I agree with you with regard to avoiding buoys that could be being used as marks.

My problem though lies with courses that are set that will take a large fleet across the track of other traffic. Last cowes week we were returning toward southampton water up the western solent - the fleets formed a constant line from cowes to the mainland shore then down the mainland shore past Beualieu (sp?) river.

I will normally try and avoid racing fleets but how do you avoid crossing that fleet. My point is that if you are expecting courtesy from cruisers you should expect it from others as well. I.e don't set your race course to use all the available water.

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[bigmart]

I don't understand your problem here. Apart from the actual start of a race the boats are sailing in open water. Ive never had a situation, even at the most crowded of times, when it was not possible to safely navigate a reasonable passage between other vessels.

Time & time again I see threads on this forum descend into discussions, about the minute details of a particular situation, then totally lose the plot with regards to the practical resolution to the whole problem. We can all think of one occaision, when we were particularly intimidated, but is that really the way that it always is. Do we really need the sledge hammer to crack this smallest of nuts.

Martin

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[max_power]

First of all I appreciate a very full and concise response that now fully informs me of why you find my original post so offensive.

Your anger is very clear and I strongly suggest that you refrain from forums like this as anyone who has this kind of anger must be a very unhappy person.I genuinely and sincerely mean that Martin . It’s not worth it.

Like other posters, I do not consider my original posting any worse than many others, although stereotyping and generalizations are always a mistake and this is probably where I went wrong. Although I did try to clarify things later by saying SOME racers choose to ignore colregs when it suits them. This appears to be where I have caused most offence to you and I apologize. This also applies to young people but you seem to have stereotyped me also.

Like you, I choose to stand by my original feelings on this subject and still feel that by disregarding colregs SOME racers take freedom and pleasure away from others and could cause possibly injury. Can we at least agree on this point ? . There is clearly a problem here which is supported by many others in this thread.

Although I, like many others get out of the way of racers where possible so we can all have our fun, I still believe that the majority of racers feel that they have special priority over other water users. This I feel stems back many years when most of yachting was of the racing kind. Road races happen now and then, yacht racing is far more prevelant. Again, my own personal view, I feel that it is not relevant to today’s water usage and much better systems could be put into place, as suggested by others , where we all can enjoy our freedoms.

In conclusion, I found some of your personal comments unecessary and not in the spirit of this forum despite my attempt to lighten things up a bit on two occasions . All you have achieved is to stifle further threads where people are going to be reluctant to make them if you are going to wade into them like you have done on this one. It takes a certain amount of bottle for anyone to post a ‘kick off’ thread that might be controversial and is perhaps one of the reasons why this board has currently gone down hill a bit if. It is much easier to criticize an action than start an action itself.

I am just going to have to accept that a particular person feels that I am a pompous old git. I have to accept this. It may just be that we meet each other on the water and find that we have more in common than we think.

This will be my last post on this thread but I will certainly read your response if there is one.


Regards,


Max














First of all I appreciate a very full and concise response that now fully informs me of why you find my original post so offensive.

Your anger is very clear and I strongly suggest that you refrain from forums like this as anyone who has this kind of anger must be a very unhappy person.I genuinely and sincerely mean that Martin . It’s not worth it.

Like other posters, I do not consider my original posting any worse than many others, although stereotyping and generalizations are always a mistake and this is probably where I went wrong. Although I did try to clarify things later by saying SOME racers choose to ignore colregs when it suits them. This appears to be where I have caused most offence to you and I apologize. This also applies to young people but you seem to have stereotyped me also.

Like you, I choose to stand by my original feelings on this subject and still feel that by disregarding colregs SOME racers take freedom and pleasure away from others and could cause possibly injury. Can we at least agree on this point ? . There is clearly a problem here which is supported by many others in this thread.

Although I, like many others get out of the way of racers where possible so we can all have our fun, I still believe that the majority of racers feel that they have special priority over other water users. This I feel stems back many years when most of yachting was of the racing kind. Again, my own personal view, I feel that it is not relevant to today’s water usage and much better systems could be put into place, as suggested by others , where we all can enjoy our freedoms.

In conclusion, I found some of your personal comments unecessary and not in the spirit of this forum despite my attempt to lighten things up a bit on two occasions . All you have achieved is to stifle further threads where people are going to be reluctant to make them if you are going to wade into them like you have done on this one. It takes a certain amount of bottle for anyone to post a ‘kick off’ thread that might be controversial and is perhaps one of the reasons why this board has currently gone down hill a bit if. It is much easier to criticize an action than start an action itself.

I am just going to have to accept that a particular person feels that I am a pompous old git. I have to accept this. It may just be that we meet each other on the water and find that we have more in common than we think.

This will be my last post on this thread but I will certainly read your response if there is one.


Regards,


Max















First of all I appreciate a very full and concise response that now fully informs me of why you find my original post so offensive.

Your anger is very clear and I strongly suggest that you refrain from forums like this as anyone who has this kind of anger must be a very unhappy person.I genuinely and sincerely mean that Martin . It’s not worth it.

Like other posters, I do not consider my original posting any worse than many others, although stereotyping and generalizations are always a mistake and this is probably where I went wrong. Although I did try to clarify things later by saying SOME racers choose to ignore colregs when it suits them. This appears to be where I have caused most offence to you and I apologize. This also applies to young people but you seem to have stereotyped me also.

Like you, I choose to stand by my original feelings on this subject and still feel that by disregarding colregs SOME racers take freedom and pleasure away from others and could cause possibly injury. Can we at least agree on this point ? . There is clearly a problem here which is supported by many others in this thread.

Although I, like many others get out of the way of racers where possible so we can all have our fun, I still believe that the majority of racers feel that they have special priority over other water users. This I feel stems back many years when most of yachting was of the racing kind. Again, my own personal view, I feel that it is not relevant to today’s water usage and much better systems could be put into place, as suggested by others , where we all can enjoy our freedoms.

In conclusion, I found some of your personal comments unecessary and not in the spirit of this forum despite my attempt to lighten things up a bit on two occasions . All you have achieved is to stifle further threads where people are going to be reluctant to make them if you are going to wade into them like you have done on this one. It takes a certain amount of bottle for anyone to post a ‘kick off’ thread that might be controversial and is perhaps one of the reasons why this board has currently gone down hill a bit if. It is much easier to criticize an action than start an action itself.

I am just going to have to accept that a particular person feels that I am a pompous old git. I have to accept this. It may just be that we meet each other on the water and find that we have more in common than we think.

This will be my last post on this thread but I will certainly read your response if there is one.


Regards,


Max










































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[jac]

In open water I agree - no problem - the fleet will be strung out and you won't have a string of boats virtually bow to stern blocking channels. In that situation I would try and keep clear However the key is open waters.

In restricted (read busy) waters it could be a problem with a large fleet. If I have a wall of boats going round a course and filling the entire width of a channel where do I go??

I agree I don't want areas marked on my chart saying racing only or cruising only.

BUT - I think we all have a responsibility to make the water available for each other. For individual racers that means understanding IRPCS and for race committess it means not blocking narrow channels with racing fleets.

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[bigmart]

Thanks Max I also appreciate your response & I do realise that I tore into you in a way that you may have found intimidating. For that I would like to apologise.

With regards to my anger, please do not be too concerned. Its the end of the winter & my boat is out of the water so I am looking for a little light relief in the evenings. Nothing is better than a good arguments, is it? Trouble is that its very hard to get a good argument going if you appear too reasonable. From what I have read, elswhere in these forums, we certainly made one or two people take notice & I don't know about you, but I don't mind being the floorshow for a couple of days.

It may not be obvious from my posts but I am, generally, a live & let live kind of guy. I don't like generalisations about social groups. We are all independent thinking people & therefore, I would suggest, should be given the courtesy of not being lumped together in unflattering groups. With regard to the young, I get a great deal of satisfaction from taking groups of young, novice, sailors to sea & watching them develop both personally & as a team. As a sailor I believe that our favourite passtime will die an untimely death if we do not encourage the young. Too many sailing clubs make their cruising as unfriendly as possible to family groups, yet it is precisely this section, of their membership that have the most to gain & offer, from cruises in company etc.

The most important aspect of cruising, to me, is the freedom to get out & enjoy the water, free from regulation. As I have said earlier freedom comes with resposibility. I feel that there is a tendency for some to run from responsibility. The commonest form this takes is in the cry for someone to regulate an aspect of the subject in question. You were suggesting some regulation on Racers. First I would suggest that, when racing, I could forgive the racing boat for behaving aggressively. The hightened adrenaline (have I spelt that right) caused by the competetive environment will cause this. Whilst this state exists I can conceive that the attitude of the racer would appear pig ignorant. I don't think I would tar all racers as being ignorant & pushy based on this thought. As I have implied elsewhere, I do not think the situation requires the drastic action of regulation & I do think that the dangers of attracting the sctrutiny of unwelcome self interest groups, is a serious threat to our future freedom. I value the freedom we currently have & deeply regret some of the freedoms we have already lost.

I could not agree with you more that people extending common courtesy to each other is the key to our enjoyment of the water.

As to being a pompous old git. I would admit to being one with the possible exception of the old (being 50 going on 15). I believe that the quickest way to get old before your time is to try & act your age.

As you say, I suspect we may have a lot in common & should we meet one day I would enjoy the opportunity to find out.

Martin

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