Should someone who has never sailed be allowed to charter?

[Nostrodamus]

We were tied up on a little island in Greece basking in the sun when a flotilla holiday boat came in and said "Can you tell us what this Island is?"
We told them, and they got out their chart.
We had to explain where the island was and then they turned round and went looking for the rest of the flotilla and where they should be.

I was laughing with the skipper of the boat next to ours when he said that last year he was a charter skipper working for a company who would allow someone who had never sailed to charter boats. They got basic training but it got me to thinking.

We all need to start somewhere but should you be allowed to charter in a busy sailing destination with no previous experience at all?

 

[tcm]

Ooh, another of Nostro's bleedin-obvious-answer questions, all the rage at the new dumbed-down ybw.com I suppose. Whatever. Lots of the charter co's jump on the charter boat to moor up and/or bring them into the marina, esp in the US. In which case yep, no problem. Sounds weird to UK sailors altho the UK is amongst the most challenging cruising areas, hence we're used to being put thru the wringer by charter co's who are very wary of renting to Germans and Spanish etc cos no tidal experience.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Yes, a novice sailors money is just as good as an experienced sailors money.

 

[JumbleDuck]

We all need to start somewhere but should you be allowed to charter in a busy sailing destination with no previous experience at all?

Yes.

 

[ChilledChilli]

First post from a long-term on/off forum follower here.
It doesn't seem to have caused Sailing Holidays any major issues over the last 30 odd years or I guess they wouldnt do it.

When I did my first flotilla with them 5 years ago I didnt have any experience beyond dinghy sailing, and once I was happy that they were happy with my (lack of) experience I went ahead with the holiday, though I did pay extra to have someone from the company with us for the first day, as I felt more comfortable doing that.

That first boat didnt have GPS in it, so were were reliant on the charts and pilotage. At the end of one long day we were sailing around offshore from where I thought we should be. When we decided it was time to come in, it was clear that we weren't where we should be.
If there had been other boats around I might well have asked them where we were to save some time and stress - even at the risk of them having a good laugh with the next door skipper at our expense. As it happens there were none, so we took a few more minutes, figured out where we must be and therefore where to go..

We made plenty of mistakes on that holiday, - but never that put us, or anyone else, or the boat in any danger. After each mistake we'd try to figure out what we'd done wrong and how to avoid it next time.

Interestingly on the last flotilla we went on (not SH) - there was one bareboat charter from the flotilla company that was following the same basic route. Skipper was a Yachtmaster and theirs was the only boat that needed regular and basic help (including the lead crew berthing the boat for them).

I'd also say that with both flotilla companies I've used, the lead crews have been expeptional at judging the level of help needed by crews - and not just their own charges. On every single holiday I've seen them helping many people having difficulties that were nothing to do with them. Often without any sign of thanks back. I wonder how many qualifications those other people had. The expertise and helpfulness of the crews make a huge difference to people with varying levels of experience.

FWIW since that first holiday I've got my Dayskipper and continue to make mistakes.

Finally, not sure how to answer your question as it's quite confusing to me.
I differentiate flotillas (where most, but not all companies insist on an ICC or equivalent) and chartering (bareboat). So are you asking about one, the other or both? The boat you saw could have been either.
What does "sailing before" mean - in dinghy's / on cruisers / as competenent crew?
What confuses me most - how do you know that they had never sailed before? Did they tell you? See my point above about the Yachtmaster following our flot who couldnt park his boat. It wouldnt have surprised me in the slightest if he didn't know where he was half the time.

To answer what I think your question might be, I think that it's preferable, but not essential for flotilla holidayers to have had sailing experince in some form, if for no other reason that to limit the amount of information they need to absorb otherwise.

 

[shaunksb]

We all need to start somewhere but should you be allowed to charter in a busy sailing destination with no previous experience at all?

What is your opinion on this?


_________________________

 

[han34]

In the UK there are no training or qualification requirements at all. Anybody can buy a boat with no sailing experience or knowledge at all, and set off. Lots of people do. Why should it be any different for chartering.

 

[SamanthaTabs]

In the UK there are no training or qualification requirements at all. Anybody can buy a boat with no sailing experience or knowledge at all, and set off. Lots of people do. Why should it be any different for chartering.

Precisely. Only country in the world where that applies?
Slightly off topic but you can apply for an ICC based on holding a Powerboat level 2, youngest daughter had that at 18. Seems silly to me given that tiny bit of experience?

 

[dslittle]

Greece is non tidal and I wouldn't consider it to be particularly busy so a good place to start (as we all did once!!!).

You could also ask if someone should be allowed to sell their house and give up the rat race to live on a boat with no previous experience???

 

[mjcoon]

Yes, a novice sailors money is just as good as an experienced sailors money.

But you might have to dedicate a larger proportion of it (potential profit) to putting the boat back together (or just back in place!) afterwards...

Mike.

 

[Mrnotming]

Precisely. Only country in the world where that applies?
Slightly off topic but you can apply for an ICC based on holding a Powerboat level 2, youngest daughter had that at 18. Seems silly to me given that tiny bit of experience?

Not only killer boats may be chartered,but killer cars "VSP"s
45kph max is enough!
http://franconaija.blogspot.ie/2013/10/french-licence-free-cars.html

 

[Tomaret]

But you might have to dedicate a larger proportion of it (potential profit) to putting the boat back together (or just back in place!) afterwards...

Mike.

I'd happily allow somebody with no experience to charter somebody else's boat. I might be more circumspect if it was my own.

When we chartered on a flotilla in Croatia we didn't have any big boat experience, but we had 50 years of dinghy sailing experience on board, and having an engine for the first time made life much easier. We even won the "squeaky clean" award for being the only boat not to balls anything up in front of the lead yacht (all of our mistakes were made out of sight). A Dutch family had even less experience, so on the second day one of the lead team spent some time with them showing them how to use the compass. As has already been said, if you are going to start, it's got to be somewhere.

 

[Melody]

There are several countries where you can sail without a licence. The US and Netherlands for instance, Greece is also one of them, although you do require a licence for a power boat.

Personally I think people should be required to prove they have a minimum level of competence before taking out a sailing boat. I don't believe you necessarily have to do a sailing course but I do think everyone who takes a boat to sea should at least pass a short test on the Colregs, basic chart knowledge, and what to do in event of an emergency.

I don't understand how these flotilla companies in the Ionian get away with it as it is Greek law that charterers should prove their competence. Normally you have to show the skipper's certificate or declaration of experience when the charter agreement is stamped by the Port Police. Insurance companies are now insisting on at least one person with a licence, although the co-skipper can just have experience.

 

[TallBuoy]

Precisely. Only country in the world where that applies?
Slightly off topic but you can apply for an ICC based on holding a Powerboat level 2, youngest daughter had that at 18. Seems silly to me given that tiny bit of experience?

The whole point is that she has been on a training course which is equal or better than the standard for an ICC, and is deemed to be sensible and capable enough to handle the boat. There is no other objective measure, apart from taking another test in each country she visits.

 

[Sandy]

We all need to start somewhere but should you be allowed to charter in a busy sailing destination with no previous experience at all?

Did you put your clothes on before answering the other boat?

I see no difference to a charter boat and the man or woman who buys a boat in the UK, with a bit of TLC they could be fantastic sailors.

 

[Uricanejack]

First post from a long-term on/off forum follower here.
It doesn't seem to have caused Sailing Holidays any major issues over the last 30 odd years or I guess they wouldnt do it.

When I did my first flotilla with them 5 years ago I didnt have any experience beyond dinghy sailing, and once I was happy that they were happy with my (lack of) experience I went ahead with the holiday, though I did pay extra to have someone from the company with us for the first day, as I felt more comfortable doing that.

That first boat didnt have GPS in it, so were were reliant on the charts and pilotage. At the end of one long day we were sailing around offshore from where I thought we should be. When we decided it was time to come in, it was clear that we weren't where we should be.
If there had been other boats around I might well have asked them where we were to save some time and stress - even at the risk of them having a good laugh with the next door skipper at our expense. As it happens there were none, so we took a few more minutes, figured out where we must be and therefore where to go..

We made plenty of mistakes on that holiday, - but never that put us, or anyone else, or the boat in any danger. After each mistake we'd try to figure out what we'd done wrong and how to avoid it next time.

Interestingly on the last flotilla we went on (not SH) - there was one bareboat charter from the flotilla company that was following the same basic route. Skipper was a Yachtmaster and theirs was the only boat that needed regular and basic help (including the lead crew berthing the boat for them).

I'd also say that with both flotilla companies I've used, the lead crews have been expeptional at judging the level of help needed by crews - and not just their own charges. On every single holiday I've seen them helping many people having difficulties that were nothing to do with them. Often without any sign of thanks back. I wonder how many qualifications those other people had. The expertise and helpfulness of the crews make a huge difference to people with varying levels of experience.

FWIW since that first holiday I've got my Dayskipper and continue to make mistakes.

Finally, not sure how to answer your question as it's quite confusing to me.
I differentiate flotillas (where most, but not all companies insist on an ICC or equivalent) and chartering (bareboat). So are you asking about one, the other or both? The boat you saw could have been either.
What does "sailing before" mean - in dinghy's / on cruisers / as competenent crew?
What confuses me most - how do you know that they had never sailed before? Did they tell you? See my point above about the Yachtmaster following our flot who couldnt park his boat. It wouldnt have surprised me in the slightest if he didn't know where he was half the time.

To answer what I think your question might be, I think that it's preferable, but not essential for flotilla holidayers to have had sailing experince in some form, if for no other reason that to limit the amount of information they need to absorb otherwise.

Nice to hear from you, I like your first post.

 

[Uricanejack]

Precisely. Only country in the world where that applies?
Slightly off topic but you can apply for an ICC based on holding a Powerboat level 2, youngest daughter had that at 18. Seems silly to me given that tiny bit of experience?

Are you sure? I have a feeling there are a lot of countries where there are no formal requirements.

 

[Uricanejack]

Why not?
You can by one.

 

[Davy_S]

I don't understand how these flotilla companies in the Ionian get away with it as it is Greek law that charterers should prove their competence. Normally you have to show the skipper's certificate or declaration of experience when the charter agreement is stamped by the Port Police. Insurance companies are now insisting on at least one person with a licence, although the co-skipper can just have experience.

Presumably the OP is talking about a Flotilla Not a private charter, you know very well that to charter bareboat you need some sort of proof of experience, and I agree. I do not agree that you need it for a flotilla holiday, the flotillas, love them or hate them have encouraged lots of people to take up sailing in a relaxed atmosphere, some of the crews have the patience of a saint. A lot of families have had a great time together and have returned for more, long may it continue. We should be actively encouraging people to take up sailing, not criticising, we all had to learn.
Not aimed at Melody, just a rant in general

 

[SimonFa]

Insurance companies are the best judges of risk in any environment and if their happy to offer insurance then I don't see a problem. They have got at least 3rd party insurance?

Not that I would have done it, having DS and bare boat chartering when everyone else had not even been on a boat was scary enough.