Should I sea trial a 2006 Southerly 110 before purchase

[DPH]

After many years of owning motor boats, but sailing a lot of other yachts, I've finally had an offer accepted on a Southerly 110.

When I bought a second hand motor boat I was almost expected to have a sea trial, but the brokerage for this sale tell me they don't do sea trials for yachts.

The brokerage have told me to use a particular surveyor as he's the only person who would be able to assess the swing keel on a Southerly.

Is this normal?

 

[Poecheng]

There isn't anything extraordinary about the swing keel. Can be expensive I expect if it goes wrong but any temporary problems seem to sort themselves out by and large.

You need to check it works (obvs) by either being in the water, slings or jacked up. You need to check the hydraulics all look ok. You need to check the custom fittings - the rope attachment point on the top of the swing keel, the blocks the rope runs through and its anchor point at the other end on the hull. Keel bolts. Check when the Spectra rope was changed as there is a recommendation for something like every five years - you can do it yourself and the Spectra is about £100. Need to check that the outside all looks ok and is sealed in ok (again not a biggie) and the flaps are in place.

Not sure if the 110 has a keel gauge - a series of leds which indicate the position of the keel; you want to make sure that is working ok.

I may be doing a disservice to some but the only specialist Southerly surveyor I am aware of died in the last year or so. I will PM you

 

[greeny]

Personally I would want a sea trial to check the condition of sails and shape along with operation of other gear such as furlers etc, and run the engine in anger for a while. I would also be choosing my own surveyor. Surely there's more than one that can assess a swing keel. I assume they are going to lift for survey to carried out. Of course they don't want to sea trial, it takes time and effort, but once a firm offer has been made and accepted I would insist.

 

[DPH]

You need to check it works (obvs) by either being in the water, slings or jacked up. You need to check the hydraulics all look ok. You need to check the custom fittings - the rope attachment point on the top of the swing keel, the blocks the rope runs through and its anchor point at the other end on the hull. Keel bolts. Check when the Spectra rope was changed as there is a recommendation for something like every five years - you can do it yourself and the Spectra is about £100. Need to check that the outside all looks ok and is sealed in ok (again not a biggie) and the flaps are in place.

Not sure if the 110 has a keel gauge - a series of leds which indicate the position of the keel; you want to make sure that is working ok.

I may be doing a disservice to some but the only specialist Southerly surveyor I am aware of died in the last year or so. I will PM you

Currently the boat is in the yard and will be lifted in slings for the survey.

 

[R.Ems]

Swing keels aren't rocket science, a broker trying to insist on a particular surveyor rings alarm bells.
You ought to take her out for a sail, there are so many things it could reveal.
I don't see the broker as being part of the decision about a sea trial, the seller would be demonstrating the yacht's qualities to you, not the broker.

 

[DPH]

Personally I would want a sea trial to check the condition of sails and shape along with operation of other gear such as furlers etc, and run the engine in anger for a while.

That's what I was thinking, specifically if the sails are still good, I believe they are the original. The brokerage tell me the surveyor would cover all this for me.

 

[Poecheng]

If original sails, for the purposes of any deal they can effectively be written off as the boat will be over ten years old. Sounds harsh but unremarkable. Doesn't mean you won't use them though !

 

[doug748]

Sea trials are not common in the UK, for modest sized boats, as most kit can be assessed without and the sailing qualities of many boats are well known. However I would not buy a boat of this type with only a shoreside survey, I would want to see the thing floating and demonstrating all the sea systems in action - through hulls, stern gear, heads, engine cooling and, in this case, the keel mechanisms. This of course is half way to a sea trial anyway.

I agree with R.Ems, it is no part of a broker's business to tell you what inspections will be allowed and I certainly think the surveyor should be seeing the boat ashore and afloat.

.

 

[Tranona]

The purpose of the sea trial is to ensure that everything claimed about the boat is true - that is all the systems work unless stated otherwise in advance. For "simple" boats this may not be necessary as an ashore check can confirm most things, although it is common to retain some part of the payment subject to the engine working when the boat is launched. However with a boat as complex as this, particularly the keel mechanism it would be wise to have a full sea trial prior to completion. This is not the same thing as a trial sail to see if you like the boat, but after you have agreed the price subject to the survey and sea trial, both of which are at your cost. It is not up to the broker to decide what checks you want before completing the purchase. Check the contract carefully to ensure that there is a clause that allows you to withdraw for any reason - this clause is in the standard ABYA contract but not all brokers use it. You can also negotiate a bespoke contract as I did when I was buying a very specific boat where the reasons allowing withdrawal were linked to defects in the structure - which indeed showed up in the survey. Although the seller offered to repair the faults I decided to withdraw citing the general clause. No problem with the broker.

Suggest you contact E39mad who is a member here as he used to work for Northshore and may be able to help with some expert knowledge.

Good luck with the boat - well worth pursuing as they are super boats if in good condition, but can be hard work if neglected, particularly the keels.

 

[Dutch01527]

I would never use a surveyor recommended by the seller’s broker. For a c.£100k boat I would not buy without a sea trial. Far too many things to go wrong: a overheating engine or a stuck keel could cost you over £10k easily as you know.

Has the boat been on the market for a long time? Something does not smell right.

 

[Biggles Wader]

As the buyer who is stumping up shed loads of money I suggest you decide what sort of inspection you want, including a sea trial if you feel you need it. If the vendor or their broker wont agree then you walk away. I find "aggressive" vendors tiresome with their no this no that you must attitudes. Its your money.

 

[R.Ems]

After many years of owning motor boats, but sailing a lot of other yachts, I've finally had an offer accepted on a Southerly 110.

When I bought a second hand motor boat I was almost expected to have a sea trial, but the brokerage for this sale tell me they don't do sea trials for yachts.

The brokerage have told me to use a particular surveyor as he's the only person who would be able to assess the swing keel on a Southerly.

Is this normal?

I am not a broker or surveyor but: It is common to make an offer 'subject to survey', you can make your offer 'subject to sea trial' as well surely? If problems arise (and they probably will), the cost of fixing them is a basis for lowering your offer to cover repairs.

 

[greeny]

In addition to my previous post, I agree with almost all of the above posts. Whilst I understand the reluctance of brokers to do sea trials for joy riders and time wasters, you are in a different position given the offer has been made and accepted. He/she needs to get off his arse and do some work for his money now. I wouldn't buy a car worth much less money than this without a test drive, and certainly wouldn't buy a boat of this value without a sea trial of some description.

 

[DPH]

Thanks for all your feedback.
I shall go back and insist on a sea trial or will walk away.

 

[Tranona]

I am not a broker or surveyor but: It is common to make an offer 'subject to survey', you can make your offer 'subject to sea trial' as well surely? If problems arise (and they probably will), the cost of fixing them is a basis for lowering your offer to cover repairs.

The standard contract has a sea trial clause in it to be used if required. However as others have observed it is rarely used for sailing boats, although commonly with power boats because of the importance of checking the engines perform to specification. It is really the complexity of this boat, particularly the keel mechanism that means it needs testing afloat to ensure it works properly.

On the other hand I can see the vendor and his broker resisting given that it is a desirable boat and another potential buyer may not be so concerned.

 

[Stemar]

When I bought my first boat, I saw the engine start from cold. It started and ran fine. She was a cheapy, and a sea trial wasn't practicable, so a friend who knew his way around boats looked her over and pronounced her sound, so we handed over the cash. The engine did run fine, but push it over a couple of knots and it laid a thick smokescreen and I ended up changing it the following year. Same mate found me a free VP2003 - 28HP in a Snapdragon 24 - faster than an Anderson 22 - so it all worked out well, but not seeing the engine at work could have been an expensive mistake.

 

[V1701]

For any broker to say something like a blanket "we don't do sea trials for yachts" is just ridiculous. All smells a bit fishy but it could just be one person being an arse and the boat could be fine...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

For any broker to say something like a blanket "we don't do sea trials for yachts" is just ridiculous. All smells a bit fishy but it could just be one person being an arse and the boat could be fine...

The broker would be unlikely to be able to offer sea trials. There may be no-one competent to take the boat out (they would probably need to be commercially certified); there are almost certainly insurance issues, and the owner (who is, after all, the seller, NOT the broker) may not be in a position to do it - when Capricious was on the Clyde I certainly couldn't have; I lived 400 miles away. A sea trial would have to be arranged with the owner, not the broker.

I can understand the need for a sea trial on a motor boat, where it would be impossible to assess the state of the engines without the opportunity to run them flat out. But any surveyor with his salt should be able to find any likely problem with a sailing boat, and do it better ashore than afloat. Lifting keels are more accessible for inspection and testing ashore; sails can be laid out and inspected on a flat surface.

 

[Tranona]

The broker would be unlikely to be able to offer sea trials. There may be no-one competent to take the boat out (they would probably need to be commercially certified); there are almost certainly insurance issues, and the owner (who is, after all, the seller, NOT the broker) may not be in a position to do it - when Capricious was on the Clyde I certainly couldn't have; I lived 400 miles away. A sea trial would have to be arranged with the owner, not the broker.

A sea trial as part of a survey is different from a trial sail. There is no need for the broker to organise it other than get the owner's agreement. The cist is with the buyer including any costs of a professional skipper, launching the boat, insuring it if necessary.

Seeing who the broker is on this boat (there is only one on the market) sea trials would not be outside their experience and it is perfectly reasonable for the buyer to make this a condition of the sale. I recently sold a boat of similar value and our approach once the buyer had demonstrated they were serious did everything reasonable to ensure the sale went smoothly and if that had included a sea trial we would have agreed, even though would have tried to persuade the buyer it was not necessary. Equally would not have insisted on one surveyor - just gave a list of possibles for the buyer to choose from.

Seeig w

 

[Crispan]

I am not a broker or surveyor but: It is common to make an offer 'subject to survey', you can make your offer 'subject to sea trial' as well surely?

That is correct, both requests are discussed with the broker and made beforehand, as conditions of the sale because sometimes its not possible or impractical etc. Then the vendor can consider the 'conditions' alongside the financial level of the offer before they accept or reject the full offer. Once the boat is formally under-offer, all conditions can then be met, including a pre-sale trial and satisfactory marine survey etc.

What a purchaser cannot expect is to change the goalposts afterwards, that-is after the offer is accepted. Private sales can go awry because of this (assumptions) or the complexities of the marine survey stage. The brokerage process protects both parties.

No-one should just expect a 'test-sail' on any vessel that is not under-offer. Vendors use brokers to handle such issues and so such requests are generally kicked into-touch.

Of-course anything can go when buying & selling privately, but that is a gamble if it is a relatively high-value boat.