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There is no need for commercial certification unless someone on board is paying to be on board. Anyone, whatever their qualifications, can carry non fee-paying passangers or crew on a <24m boat in a 'not for profit' scenario.
Should I sea trial a 2006 Southerly 110 before purchase
- Thread starter DPH
- Start date
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
But the Broker is NOT the owner, or even the seller of the boat. The broker would be taking a person out in the pursuit of his or her business; surely that counts as commercial? And it is for profit; the broker charges a substantial fee! Basically, the broker would be being paid by the seller to take a buyer out for a sail. If that isn't commercial I don't know what is. The broker's position is completely different from that of the owner, who could take the prospective buyer out without any such issue, but in many cases it simply isn't reasonable for the owner to offer that; distance, ill-health or even death might prevent it. I might accept a (small) proportion of the agreed price being held back pending a sea trial, but I would want the nature of things that might result in the money being withheld to be clearly specified. I would want a list of things being tested on the sea trial, with specific targets for each to be agreed with me.
I seriously don't believe that sea trials for a sailing boat offer anything that a good survey doesn't, so I would not facilitate it.
KompetentKrew
Well-known member
The boat I bought was the second I had surveyed.
The first boat was in the back of a large shed, and a sea trial would not have been possible for some weeks. The broker of the second boat just treated it like lifting it out of the water, then putting back in and motoring around the IJsselmeer a bit, was a standard part of all surveys.
The first boat was in the back of a large shed, and a sea trial would not have been possible for some weeks. The broker of the second boat just treated it like lifting it out of the water, then putting back in and motoring around the IJsselmeer a bit, was a standard part of all surveys.
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Tranona
Well-known member
There is absolutely nothing unusual in a sea trial, nor is it "commercial" in the way that is implied. You just need the permission of the owner and his insurer. The insurer might ask for the qualifications of the surveyor, but unlikely. This is an everyday part of a surveyor's work. Quite normal for the broker to be onboard as well. While it is true that an on shore survey does cover most of the issues on a sailing boat, a buyer is perfectly entitled to ask to see all the equipment operating correctly in the water. Standard clause in the contract "subject to survey and sea trial" .
Never Grumble
Well-known member
Both boats I have had surveyed with a view to purchase were subject to sea trial, the first never happened because the yacht engine wasn't working when turned up, didn't buy that one. the second one there was a sea trial but not having been there I am not sure it was really of much value, yes they did run the engine and get the sails out but not sure the comments helped much.
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
It's just an assumption is that it is the broker that is taking the boat out. Why would that be the case? If the owner of the boat gives permission to the potential purchaser to take the boat out for a sea trial then broker is merely there to ensure the boat isn't mistreated, damaged or stolen. The broker is being paid for specific services - but the sea trial, especially once a formal offer has been made, would be between the owner and the purchaser if agreed.
ChromeDome
Well-known member
He who pays decides - and vice versa.
Since broker won't pay he can't decide. You hold the ultimate power because he wants your money and would be a fool not to work for a compromise to close the deal.
Since broker won't pay he can't decide. You hold the ultimate power because he wants your money and would be a fool not to work for a compromise to close the deal.
Stemar
Well-known member
Dumb question: Could you offer £x subject to sea trial or £(x - cost of reengining) without? Worst case is then that you get a new engine at next to no additional cost.
Crispan
New member
Because once a vendor assigns the services of a broker, the broker handles all aspects of the sale, not just bits of it. That is why vendors employ brokers, especially with high-value complex sales. The broker also has a duty of care for third party property (often the owner is not present) and a contract to honour with the vendor, including the necessary liabilities in place.
It would be odd and risky for an owner to give their permission to any third-party to 'borrow' their boat because they would first have to involve their insurance company. In those circumstances the insurance company is likely to refuse on the existing policy unless the owner is present.
davidej
Well-known member
When I sold my last boat, I gave the buyer a sea trial AFTER he had completed the sale and paid me in full.
For no good reason The surveyor decided the engine was iffy so the buyer got an engineer from a Volvo dealer to examine,start and run it - again after I had been paid.
To put the super nervous buyer’s mind to rest, I took him for a motor around the moorings. He took the helm and damn nearly run us up on the mud. But that’s another story……
For no good reason The surveyor decided the engine was iffy so the buyer got an engineer from a Volvo dealer to examine,start and run it - again after I had been paid.
To put the super nervous buyer’s mind to rest, I took him for a motor around the moorings. He took the helm and damn nearly run us up on the mud. But that’s another story……
DPH
Active member
The buyer has agreed to a sea trial next Friday.
Fingers crossed we have a boat again!
Fingers crossed we have a boat again!
Concerto
Well-known member
That's nice to hear. Sounds as if you are close to getting the boat. Does that mean you are going to change your avatar photo?
Tranona
Well-known member
Good news. Important for all parties to be happy with the transaction.
TSB240
Well-known member
I used to own a hydraulic powered lift keel boat but not a Southerly.
This is mostly outside most surveyors experience with the exception of hydraulic steering which is relatively low pressure.
You or your surveyor need to inspect and operate all the key components a number of times.
Ours had an electric truck tail lift motor driving a hydraulic pump and operating a ram working at loss on a wire and pulley arrangement so that the 600mm of ram movement gave 1.2M of vertical keel lift.
Failure of the lifting wire would probably have resulted in catastrophic loss of keel with a big hole in the bottom!
The hydraulic pump may be belt driven off the engine via a clutch drive on a Southerly?
Ours had an electrical solenoid valve pack to control lift and lower this could be a mechanical lever operated valve.
I don't know the Southerly set up but ours was only powered on lift. The lower action was under gravity but depended upon a pressure relief valve to regulate descent.
Any dirt or rust in the hydraulic oil can cause the valve to block and the keel won't lower. The key failure mode of any hydraulic system is usually through lack of use and rust.
Any rust on or in a hydraulic cylinder ram or in the oil will usually result in seals rapidly degrading leaking or failing under load or valve blockage. Sample the oil in the hydraulic oil reservoir for cleanliness.
Tell tale signs of hydraulic oil leaks probably mean the whole system will need some or all connections checking and seals replacing.
Watch out for chafed or degraded hydraulic pipes which are often only fitted with galvanised fittings which age very quickly in a salt environment.
Most parts or servicing can be easily obtained from a hydraulic machinery specialist and wont command boat tax prices!
This is mostly outside most surveyors experience with the exception of hydraulic steering which is relatively low pressure.
You or your surveyor need to inspect and operate all the key components a number of times.
Ours had an electric truck tail lift motor driving a hydraulic pump and operating a ram working at loss on a wire and pulley arrangement so that the 600mm of ram movement gave 1.2M of vertical keel lift.
Failure of the lifting wire would probably have resulted in catastrophic loss of keel with a big hole in the bottom!
The hydraulic pump may be belt driven off the engine via a clutch drive on a Southerly?
Ours had an electrical solenoid valve pack to control lift and lower this could be a mechanical lever operated valve.
I don't know the Southerly set up but ours was only powered on lift. The lower action was under gravity but depended upon a pressure relief valve to regulate descent.
Any dirt or rust in the hydraulic oil can cause the valve to block and the keel won't lower. The key failure mode of any hydraulic system is usually through lack of use and rust.
Any rust on or in a hydraulic cylinder ram or in the oil will usually result in seals rapidly degrading leaking or failing under load or valve blockage. Sample the oil in the hydraulic oil reservoir for cleanliness.
Tell tale signs of hydraulic oil leaks probably mean the whole system will need some or all connections checking and seals replacing.
Watch out for chafed or degraded hydraulic pipes which are often only fitted with galvanised fittings which age very quickly in a salt environment.
Most parts or servicing can be easily obtained from a hydraulic machinery specialist and wont command boat tax prices!
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
That's just WRONG I'm afraid, The broker cannot handle all aspects of the sale of something they don't own. The broker will be instructed to perhaps only refer offers above a certain price to the vendor, they may be instructed to contact the vendor before showing the boat, there's lots of aspects the Broker wouldn't expect to handle normally including whether or not a sea trial is allowed to go ahead. The broker's responsibilities are defined by the contract they have with the vendor and also by any subsequent communications that may modify, permit or reinforce parts of the contract,
That's partially correct. If the owner is present then any insurance issues are moot as the owner is simply out for a sail with some people he knows. I've borrowed peoples boats on quite a few occasions though - it's the boat that gets insured not the owner and the restrictions on who can skipper or crew vary according to policy.
Tranona
Well-known member
Just to clarify the position re sea trials. "subject to survey and sea trial" is one of the standard clauses in the model sales and purchase contracts. However it is only a model contract and both buyer and seller can ask for changes BUT they must both agree before they sign the contract and often a sea trial is not included because it is impractical or the buyer is happy to proceed without one. However it would be unreasonable for a seller to refuse one if the potential buyer requests it as it may result in the buyer withdrawing. As with all things to do with negotiating contracts it about arriving at an agreement that both parties accept. It is perhaps a matter of judgement on whether a trial is necessary, but in the case of a complex boat like this not difficult to understand that a buyer would want to see that all systems work in use rather than just static checks. Really no different from independent checks like a full rigging inspection or an engine survey.
benjenbav
Well-known member
I’ve never sailed a Southerly but, from my sailing days, I haven’t forgotten the day when, waiting for the tide near Birdham, I warned a passing example that he might run out of water. “Lifting keel” he replied and sailed on whilst I put the kettle on and continued to wait.
jordanbasset
Well-known member
When I enquired about a sea trial on one occasion it was agreed on the understanding the payment for lift out and in, plus a qualified skipper would be down to me, which seemed fair.
As it turned out I didn't bother with one in the end.
As it turned out I didn't bother with one in the end.
V1701
Well-known member
They don't usually test the engine though do they and unless you know for a fact that a surveyor is worth his salt I personally would take any survey with a large pinch of the same anyway...
