Should I buy an old Versilcraft or a Fairline Squadron?

[Andrew72]

Hello everyone,

I've been searching and reading the forums for the past couple of months and found some really useful information. I now need to dip my toe into the forum to ask your advice. I feel like I have 1001 questions but I'll try to limit it to just a few

I'm a complete newbie to the boating world - I've been on a couple of boats and love spending time on the water but I've never properly sailed / owned a boat. Now I'm seriously considering jumping in at the (very) deep and buying a motor boat to live on.

I know, I'm probably crazy, but that's why I'm here - so you can all talk me out of the silly idea or convince me that it's not actually that crazy

I'll be living on the boat alone most of the time and just having family / friends stay over occasionally. I'm currently living in a 2 bed flat with a big balcony in central London and I quite like having extra space, so I'm not sure how I'm going to adapt to life on board full time (or most of the time). This is why I'm looking at fairly large boats as I really want to have proper headroom and don't want to feel claustrophobic, particularly in winter months.

So, here's the plan ...

Find a nice motorboat 50+ feet long
Find a mooring (Ideally in central London for a year or 2, then probably on the south coast or in Cornwall)
Get a really good survey on the boat, buy it and sail it to it's mooring in London
Live on it happily ever after!

I know I'm not the first person to ask these sort of newbie questions on here and I probably won't be the last. However, there are some practical, everyday things that I just don't know how they work on a boat - no matter how large it is.

The sort of motor boats I'm considering (but haven't yet seen in the flesh) are ....

Fairline Squadron 48/50
http://www.boatshed.com/fairline_squadron_4750-boat-126163.html

Pros: It's in the UK so it won't cost lots of money to get it to London.
It's a GRP hull

Cons: While it's not a small boat, I'm just not sure it's got quite enough space to live on board permanently.


Versilcraft 80
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1977/Versilcraft-80'-2433468/France

Pros: It looks amazing and has lots and lots of space.
It's been a charter yacht and, at first glance, it seems to have been very well looked after.

Cons: It's a wooden hull and I understand they're quite a lot more work than GRP hulls to look after.
Transporting it from it's current mooring (Nice / Corsica) could cost quite a few thousand by sea / road. Sailing it home would be an adventure though.
Insurance and mooring fees seem to be pretty expensive too.

According to the broker, it needs the following work, estimated at 30,000 euro

- New flexyteck on bathing platform
- New flybridge deck
- superstructure: fix the wood (some part)
- New varnish
- Survey for the commercial flag and safety equipments

Both boats are around £150 - £160k.

If anyone on the forum has/had a boat similar to either of those above, I'd be keen to know what they're like to spend lots of time on. In particular, I'm interested in the following ...

Transporting to the UK from the Med

Have you bought a large 1970s - 1990s wooden / GRP boat in the Med and sailed / transported it back to the UK / Northern Europe?

Surveys on Wooden hulls

Can anyone recommend a really good surveyor for GRP and / or wooden yachts in the UK or south of France? I'm currently looking at the moment but it's always good to hear what experience other people have had.

Insurance

The quote I've had for the Versilcraft is for UK / Northern Europe sailing is ... gulp .... £2600 per year! That was from Pantaenius. Can anyone recommend them? Or are there other, good yacht insurance companies who you think would be cheaper?

Soundproofing

It's been a while since I stayed on board a boat and can't remember what the soundproofing was like between cabins. My worry is that it's a bit like a floating caravan and you can hear every sound from the cabin / toilet next door!

Heating / insulation

From the many posts I've read it seems that hooking up to the marina's electricity and powering a heater is the best way to keep warm and keep out the condensation.

Both yachts above have in-built heaters / air conditioning so I'm guessing that will be enough to keep everything dry. Or would I have to invest in a separate heater to keep the condensation away?

Maintenance Costs / Schedule

How much do you spend on annual maintenance or what sort of things do you service / repair each year? Sorry, I know that's a "how long is a piece of string?" sort of question but it'll be good to know the sort of maintenance you've encountered in the past few years. I'm just planning my budget and want to have a general idea of what I might be able to expect.

Do large yachts (like the Versilcraft 80) need a full crew, or can they be sailed by a single skipper if not on a commercial flag? I'd be moving it from a commercial flag / code just to private use.

Ok, I think that's more than enough rambling questions for now. Thanks in advance

Andrew

 

[Tranona]

Really two parts here.

First, the practicalities of living on a boat such as you describe. You will not find many - if any at all - who do this in this country. These boats are not designed for living on board, but for fun, although people do live on them in their holiday time. You will find most large liveaboards are displacement boats, usually these days purpose built steel boats or conversions of working craft such as Dutch barges.

Finding a residential mooring for this type of boat (indeed almost any liveaboard boat) around London or the south coast is very difficult and expensive. If you think your insurance quote is high (actually that quote sounds pretty low), get some prices from marinas - think £15k+pa for the 50 footer, double that for the 80 - (if you can find anywhere decent that will take it) in many places, most of which would not encourage liveaboards, but may turn a blind eye.

Second the type of boat. These boats are rich peoples' toys. New they cost anywhere from £500k upwards for a 50 and into the £millions for an 80. Running costs and maintenance are related to that sort of price bracket NOT the £150k you will pay for an older example. The reason why they are so cheap is that they cost a fortune to operate. Of the 2 you have suggested the Fairline is probably acceptable, but run away from the other as fast as you can - even if they offer to give it to you. They are hugely complex, most of the systems will be old and probably obsolete and repairs require real skill. From the work the broker says it needs your final bill will probably be 5 times the estimate. Forget about transporting if from SofF. Too big for road, and a brave person to undertake a sea delivery on an old boat like that.

There has been much discussion on here about what will happen to these old boats now they have become so expensive to run. You can already see many of them unloved laid up in yards, or in a berth in the med with a rotting for sale sign on them. Many will probably end up in mud berths somewhere remote, rotting away, perhaps converted into static homes if you can get permission.

There are, of course people who do live on board, but mostly retired who have time to keep them up, and mostly in warm places. Other liveabords tend to buy sailing boats or motorsailers because, although they don't have the space are economic to operate, easily mobile and relatively simple.

Finally, those big boats are the very last thing a beginner should consider. Most are bought by experienced people who have worked their way up through smaller boats and are well aware of what they are taking on. Obviously some are bought by rich people who just fancy the idea - but those are usually the ones you see for sale early in their life!

Sorry if it sounds negative. Liveaboard life can be very satisfying, but you need to be aware of the problems to see through the glamour.

 

[Andrew72]

Thanks Tranona.

I knew that my rose-tinted spectacles were getting in the way

That's excellent advice you've provided and, having read many of the "what will happen to the old superyachts" links on the forum I was sort of coming around to your way of thinking.

It's just good to hear it directly - especially as I'm a total novice in this area.

I knew the upkeep on these sorts of yachts would be high.

I've got an old-ish Jaguar sitting in the driveway. Was £60k new but I bought it last year for £2 (knowing full well that the upkeep would still be that of a £60k car). It's not been too bad ... so far. Not sure how long that will last though.

Buying the boat version of this would probably be very foolhardy indeed.

I shall take a far more sensible first step into the boating world as you suggest

Thanks again.

 

[kashurst]

Hi Andrew72, sadly Tranona is spot on. Big boat = big costs especially for the newbie.
If you are still keen and can find a live aboard marina, stay away from wooden boats unless you just happen to be a very good ships carpenter. Fibreglass boats very simple to keep . Big downside in the UK though is they are very cold in winter. Unless you keep them well ventilated and warm they get damp too. Best live aboards for UK are probably steel dutch barges and canal boats that are built for UK weather and well insulated.

 

[Firefly625]

again totally support tranora's views, there is mention of high cost of running this type of boat as you are a newbie, to be honest even if you have a few decades of experience they will still cost a pile of money to run, especially that Versilcraft!!

does look the business though....I can see the dream.... just imagine bringing your mates back to st Cats and pointing over to the pontoon with the Versilcraft sitting there...and saying, thats my house... excellent! So either run with that dream and make sure you get a spare couple of 100k for running costs for a few years, or get a real liveaboard barge... yup, they dont look so glamorous but they are a house on water and not built for sun and fun... and move out of London a bit and its only £75 a week mooring cost.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/houseboat-liveaboard-barge-thames-lighter-/170797175552?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item27c44e1300#ht_500wt_1026



.

 

[MapisM]

Well, it's hard to disagree that maintenance and running costs of a wooden 80 footer would be higher than those of a 50' plastic boat.
"Elementary, my dear Watson" springs to mind.
But - and it's a big but - nobody in his right mind would hesitate for a second if given the choice of where to liveaboard, between those two boats.
The only point is, can you afford the best choice?
Personally, if I couldn't, I'd probably forget the whole liveaboard idea than go for that sort of alternative.

 

[Deefor]

Here's a good link for an insight into living aboard http://www.rboa.org.uk/qa.

Read it and then take a reallity check .

From your original post, I get the impression you want to make a statement rather than thinking about what's practical - head v heart syndrome .

My ex and I lived quite happily on a Fairline 40 for a couple of years but we had the luxury of the marina turning a blind eye to liveaboards (we worked in the marina ).

For most of the time it's going to be just you on the boat so you need a saloon to relax in, a galley to cook in and a cabin to sleep in. So, being practical and sensible, a mid 30 foot Broom would suit your needs and they hold their value well.

You'll also have to be very minimalistic and a lot of your personal stuff ani't going to fit into your boat. Then you've got to find a mooring - hmmm, best of luck.

Living aboard is fantastic if it all comes together but you're going to need a lot of luck and a favourable wind if you're going to succeed and be happy.

 

[oldgit]

Boats,Shoes and Pockets.

Agree with 100% of above comments.
Any accommodation ashore will appear to be palacial compared with any 50ft boat after a short while.
Keeping any livaboard boat warm in winter and cool in summer does lead to problems with condensation and everything aboard (including the owner ) will aquire a certain perfume.
It is almost impossible to find a berth even out here in the muddy armpit of UK so anything in central London will be dead mans shoes and you will need Richard Branson pockets.
Remember also the thing will have to come out of the water for a survey every few years and we are looking at thousands here plus any repairs for insurance.

IMHO opinion living on a boat is only for the very rich ie, Bankers or Members of our present government or for the sort on person who spends a lot of time in our Lounge.ie.No mates.

As for wood,leave it where it belongs on the river bank with leaves.

 

[Locki]

I don't think its such a crazy idea... The Fairline 50 _would_ cost a lot to maintain _if_ you need to keep it seaworthy all the time, but if your main requirement is domestic appliances, it might not be too bad. I woke up wondering about living on board my Squadron 55 this very morning, and I think you could do it in a snap.

As for a Central London mooring, if you don't mind a bit of wash, then the Imperial Wharf moorings would be less than £10k for a 50 footer. What's more, if your boat is seaworthy, you can slip your mooring at any time that the bridges will allow, and have an amazing river cruise past Westminster, and the London Eye. Basically, if you can keep the cooker, shower, heater, and plumbing working, you could live in Central London for less than a £1k a month. Crazy! I got Satelite TV reception there without any problems, and you're next door to multiple great restaurants and pubs. The helicopters might become annoying though!

Lots of people live aboard without permission in Marinas. In reality its very hard for them to prove you are, and most don't care if you keep yourself to yourself, and spend a few nights away each month.

The boat will depreciate and you'll find it very hard to sell. Assume you won't get your money back, and you'll enjoy it even more.

 

[MapisM]

As for wood,leave it where it belongs on the river bank with leaves.

When I read these sweeping generalizations, I can't help wondering what's the rationale behind them.
I mean, aside from needing more maintenance for wood, which as already mentioned is stating the obvious, how many people actually tried living onboard both GRP and wooden boats?
I did, and also in pretty cold climates (a few times, with ice surrounding the boat!).
And it's on the basis of these experiences that I posted my previous comment.
Actually, for liveaboard - particularly in cold climates - I'd rather go for a wooden 50' than an 80' plastic boat...!

 

[Tranona]

It is not the wood construction per se which is the problem - it is the lack of maintenance. They will not tolerate neglect in the same way that most GRP boats will. Would be more concerned about feeeding and looking after those old GM V12 engines and all the systems that are needed to keep all that lovely interior comfortable, warm, cool and dry.

 

[oldgit]

"When I read these sweeping generalizations, I can't help wondering what's the rationale behind them."


The Medway used to be lined with old MTBs/Barges/MFVs and such like,pressed into service simply because no other cheap accomodation was around after war and over the years you could watch them slowly decline with weeping fastenings and seams visible along the hull until they finally were letting in water faster than it could be pumped out.
The local creeks were a handy place to sneakly put them ashore in the dead of night at the end of their lives.
We frequently used to tow old house boats from yard to another,problem was eventually even IF you discovered something solid to put the tow rope around,once underway all the mud got washed out of the seams and the old heap used to start heading straight down. The original owner would promptly make himself scarce PDQ leaving the new owner wondering if his new "investment" was about to sink under him taking all his money with it..
Is a damp wet world around here and a quick trip out to local nearbye marina will show the problems especially with imported Italian stuff especially very visable.

If you want to spend you life keeping the thing floating and repainting the hull every year then fine,if not IMHO stick to glassfibre.

 

[MapisM]

All well and good - I did accept that wood needs more maintenance, didn't I?
But my point was, if given a choice, onboard which of those two boats you'd rather live?
I can see reasons why someone could say neither, but anyone who would choose the Squaddie (unless strictly for maintenance/costs reasons) is either a masochist or needs psychiatric help...

 

[MapisM]

Would be more concerned about feeeding and looking after those old GM V12 engines and all the systems that are needed to keep all that lovely interior comfortable, warm, cool and dry.

Agreed, but that's rather driven by size and age, than by the wooden or plastic hull.

 

[vas]

just saw the thread and since a have a soft spot for old Italian craft, I thought I'll give me 2drx worth...

Of course the Versilcraft looks much better, much larger etc but the photos do not show much other than what's attractive. There's going to be lots of interesting things behind the skin, and if you're not familiar or don't understand what's going on and not willing to spend serious amount of time yourself (or v.serious amounts of money for someone else to do it...) then you're buying into a large neverending problem.

My Versilcraft although much smaller than this 25m one, did look neglected (externally) is okayish mechanically and needs a awful lot of work overal to get it to the standards I want. Bought cheap(ish) at 20K euro for the size/year and knowing that I'm going to work myself to get it right. Have a look here for an idea of the issues that may arise (or are well hidden behind a nice new shiny topcoat of expensive paint)

It looks that for the area you want to keep her and the function to perform, the Versilcraft will be a problem/nightmare (BTW, I assume it's triple planked thing, not ply like mine, right?)

cheers

V.

 

[Deefor]

Unles it's 100% residential, you'll need a shore based address to get your post sent to. IMO, marinas don't and won't want to receive your post and then that gives the game away as they then know you're a liveaboard. Now this is where things can start to go Pete Tong in the UK...........

So let's say you get a relative or friend localish to where the boat's moored (you don't want to be driving great distance to pick post up) that agrees you can have post sent to their address, you then have to get on the electoral register at their address. Reason? Credit rating . To maintain your credit score, you'll need a landline phone no. and electoral register listing, the first things companies look for if and when you apply for credit such as a new credit card or personal loan.

You'll have to give the bank your "new" address along with any credit card companies and notify the DVLA for licence and V5 car details plus many other institutions that want to know you have a permanent address.

PO boxes and "post restante" only work short term. I know of many boaters that sort of liveaboard but they haven't sold their bricks and mortar - they simply rent it out and avoid all the pitfalls as descibed above.

Are you used to the convinience and living out of a freezer? Forget it on a boat as you'll be strapped to get a few pizzas and micowave meals in a boat freezer and similarily the size of fridge.

Water supply - even with the biggest tanks, the time will come when you need to fill up. Not easy in the depths of winter when the hoses on the pontoon have frozen. Pump out - again the time will come when your black tank is overflowing but the weather conditions or lack of crew prevent you from doing this. Has to wait for another day which could be along time away.

One last thing - laundry. Unless you have an on board washer/dryer, it's trips to your "other" address or friends or the local launderette. Luxury if the marina/moorings have these facilities.

I went through all of the above and eventually came ashore. However, for a single person or a likeminded couple, it's a great life. I never had any problems with cold or condensation on my Fairline 40 (Fairline Mirage aft cabin prior to that) but I did have 24hr shore power. You learn to live and adapt to the harsh reality of living aboard and to make changes to the boat. I don't think I was sober for two years, such is the friendship and relationships you build up with other bertholders. The winter was beautiful, solitude and peaceful in the marina, even at weekends.

God, now I wish I was back living on the water

 

[Andrew72]

Wow! Thank you so much everyone for your excellent advice.

So, here goes with my long list of responses ...

@Firefly625 ... You must have read my mind about the Versilcraft!

....I can see the dream.... just imagine bringing your mates back to st Cats and pointing over to the pontoon with the Versilcraft sitting there...and saying, thats my house... excellent!
.

Thanks for the link to the proper houseboat too. I'd actually seen it before. Looks ok for the money but, having watched far too many James Bond films growing up I just like the idea of something that looks nice on the outside and can sail too. I know, I'm not sensible at all!

If I won the lottery, just for a laugh, I'd buy that Versilcraft as it would be a great, albeit expensive, project

@Deefor and @Oldgit ....

Thanks for the http://www.rboa.org.uk/qa link. I'd seen it before but definitely worth me reading again. I certainly need that reality check

I'd actually checked with St Kats a few weeks ago and they have a 6 month mooring available for a 25m yacht from September. Sure, it's not cheap but a lot cheaper than the rent I'm currently paying in London.

I'm currently minimising all my possessions in my flat in preparation for any sort of liveaboard life. I can't stand the clutter I've accumulated in recent years. It's all being sold on ebay and going to Freecycle / charity shops now. Hoping to have a very sparse flat in the next few weeks. I might even go as far as to say it will be "ship shape".

This whole yacht smell / "perfume" business has concerned me though. I don't want my clothes smelling of marine condensation or whatever the smell is. Naturally, I'll be hooked up to shore power and running heaters / air con / dehumidifiers as necessary.

@Locki ...

I don't think its such a crazy idea... The Fairline 50 _would_ cost a lot to maintain _if_ you need to keep it seaworthy all the time, but if your main requirement is domestic appliances, it might not be too bad. I woke up wondering about living on board my Squadron 55 this very morning, and I think you could do it in a snap.

Thanks! I know I'm pretty crazy but nice to know that there is a tiny bit of sanity in my logic. I'm usually away a few days a month anyway and spend most weekends on the coast so staying underneath the marina's radar shouldn't be a problem.

@MapisM ...

When I read these sweeping generalizations, I can't help wondering what's the rationale behind them.
I mean, aside from needing more maintenance for wood, which as already mentioned is stating the obvious, how many people actually tried living onboard both GRP and wooden boats?
I did, and also in pretty cold climates (a few times, with ice surrounding the boat!).
And it's on the basis of these experiences that I posted my previous comment.
Actually, for liveaboard - particularly in cold climates - I'd rather go for a wooden 50' than an 80' plastic boat...!

I don't think the maintenance would bother me too much. I'd much rather keep doing little things on the boat and often to keep it in good shape and take pride in it. I guess I just need to get a handle on the real costs of it.

I appreciate your comments about living on the Squadron too.

Funnily enough there are a couple of 70s / 80s style Versilcraft yachts in St Kats. I'm pretty sure they're Versilcraft. One looks like a Challenger (80 / 90) and the other a Super Phantom / Super Vanguard.

I'd love to get to speak to the owners of them to see what their experience of keeping these sorts of boats in the UK / London is. Anyone here know the boats I mean or the owners by any chance?

I walk through St Katherine's dock on a regular basis (usually to daydream!) so hopefully I'll bump into the owners one day.

@virtuvas ...

Wow! Your project (http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296044) is truly amazing. That's what I call serious maintenance! I've now added your thread to my favourites and will be an avid follower of your progess.

Looking at some of the interior photos it reminded me of the 42foot offshore racing boat my dad (a marine engineer) bought in the 70s. Yes, you can see that craziness runs in my family!

I remember spending many a weekend at the boat yard emptying buckets of water from a wooden hull that was on stilts all the time.

Sadly, we never managed to get that boat in the water before we had to sell it.

I'm pretty sure the Versilcraft 80 is a triple planked construction, unlike your ply Mystere 43.

Good luck with the rest of your project. I can't wait to see the finished boat and see how much it cost to do.

If I do go down the wooden boat route (don't worry Tranona, I'll try hard not to!) then I can't imagine I'll be able to do as much work on the boat as you're doing on the Mystere 43. Many of my family are carpenters, builders and engineers so I'm hoping that will be useful.

My desk job doesn't allow me to do as much manual stuff as I'd like. So, my carpentry skills only extend to building stupid rafts to race around Brighton pier each summer. If you want a laugh, you can read about it here or see the silly video of my floating creation here

@Deefor again ...

Unles it's 100% residential, you'll need a shore based address to get your post sent to.

That shouldn't be a problem for me, thankfully. I'll be registered elsewhere in the UK for electoral reasons, credit, etc.

Are you used to the convinience and living out of a freezer? Forget it on a boat as you'll be strapped to get a few pizzas and micowave meals in a boat freezer and similarily the size of fridge.

I can't see this being a major problem for me. I'm not a microwave junkie and, while I cook at home, I go out in London a lot too. I really appreciate the info though as this is the sort of practical stuff that didn't really cross my mind when I first thought about living on a boat.

Water supply - even with the biggest tanks, the time will come when you need to fill up. Not easy in the depths of winter when the hoses on the pontoon have frozen. Pump out - again the time will come when your black tank is overflowing but the weather conditions or lack of crew prevent you from doing this. Has to wait for another day which could be along time away.

Yes, this is a concern. Especially in the winter. St Kats was almost frozen solid this winter so I can imagine the hoses / pump outs weren't great during that period.

The whole black tank / pump out thing is something I'll search the forum for in more detail.

One last thing - laundry. Unless you have an on board washer/dryer, it's trips to your "other" address or friends or the local launderette. Luxury if the marina/moorings have these facilities.

I went through all of the above and eventually came ashore. However, for a single person or a likeminded couple, it's a great life. I never had any problems with cold or condensation on my Fairline 40 (Fairline Mirage aft cabin prior to that) but I did have 24hr shore power.

God, now I wish I was back living on the water

All the boats I've looked at have had washers / dryers (even the Fairline Squadron) as I don't really want to trek to the laundrette late one night - just to have some clean clothes for the morning.

The marinas, such as St Kats have 24 hour shore power so hopefully condensation won't be too much of an issue either.

Time for me to take a look at some of these boats in the flesh just to get a feel for the actual space (and any smell!) inside.

For those of you who mentioned that steel barges would be more suited to the UK climate, I do have another option (which will probably make you sigh / raise your eyebrows / tut / shake your head) ...

This one's got an aluminium hull

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1988/Codecasa--2191221/Spain

Meanwhile, I'm going to try and find a boat that I can rent as a B&B / hotel / share (without actually sailing it from it's mooring) for a few days.

If anyone knows of a suitable boat in their marina (anywhere in Europe) please let me know.

Ok, that really is enough nonsense from me today.

Thanks again for all your excellent advice

 

[BartW]

Should I buy an old Versilcraft or a Fairline Squadron?

this title is similar to my princess or Ferretti thread a year ago,
could give you some idea's or inspiration;
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260592
dig deeper in this thread and you will find many examples and pictures from big older boats

On the liveaboard thing I can't give you advice,
we use the boat partially as a hollidayhouse in the med, so just like a liveaboard,
but only part time,
so I 'm still very exited each time when I can go a week or a long weekend to the boat.
I simply don't know if the feeling is the same when I would live permanently on her in colder climate.

lots of good comments here above, pro aswell as cons, so much food for thought,
but I'm temted to say, follow your hart (and your wallet)
my main conclusion after my search was, don't be shy to go for the best you can get for your budget.

In my case I went for a Italian 70ft GRP hull boat, with wooden superstructure
for me a bit the best of both,

A planing boat was crucial to me, but in your case some really nice Displacement or semi D are out there
(some nice examples in my thread are still on the market....)

I wish you good luck with your interesting plan, and keep us updated with your search.

 

[MedDreamer]

I think I'm right in saying that you would need a Yachtmaster qualification to sail the Versilcraft as its over 23m even just to move it to empty the black water tank

If I've got this wrong I'm sure someone will correct me

 

[jfm]

I think I'm right in saying that you would need a Yachtmaster qualification to sail the Versilcraft as its over 23m even just to move it to empty the black water tank

If I've got this wrong I'm sure someone will correct me

Yup you're wrong Meddy! It has to be over 24m load line length, and it's nowhere near that. 24m load line length is typically 27-28m LOA