Refueler
Well-known member
This is where it gets interesting ... forums such as this get read / seen by international community .....
Here PBO RtoR tends to be Brit orientated ... but go on an RC forum and you get swamped by USA posts.
Shore Power - Is this safe?
- Thread starter Lynette
- Start date
This is where it gets interesting ... forums such as this get read / seen by international community .....
Here PBO RtoR tends to be Brit orientated ... but go on an RC forum and you get swamped by USA posts.
pvb
Well-known member
It isn't, the ABYC recommends it.
Refueler
Well-known member
Maybe this one will help :
https://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/assets/builders-handbook/ELECTRICAL.pdf
pvb
Well-known member
How would that help?
VicS
Well-known member
It does not help me but diagrams 1-5 on page 33 et seq of the ABYC Standard E-11 backs up what you say about the shorepower earth connection to the DC negative .
http://www.blackfinforums.com/sites/default/files/10/attachments/abyc-e-11.pdf
superheat6k
Well-known member
This thread reflects why advice on things electrical is becoming less prevalent on here.
Comments referring to other Forum commenters in a disparaging way, ignores entirely the fact that those with valid contribution are all working in their day jobs either in Boat extra low voltage systems (12 / 24 vdc) or industrial low voltage systems (AC 110 - 400) , and in some cases a decent amount of both.
As with all current regulations the specific standards each work do may be different, for instance my main point of reference is EN60204 Safety of Electrical Machines, as opposed to those associated with more general power use, e.g, 17th and now 18th edition (IEE Regs), and again different to the standards VicS refers to for Boat systems.
But what is clear is that casting away the advice of such forumites or criticising them simply means their valued advice will simply no longer be available, for fear of being made to look a fool, and unable to prove their case due to digressions. Simpler not to respond in the first place !
Comments referring to other Forum commenters in a disparaging way, ignores entirely the fact that those with valid contribution are all working in their day jobs either in Boat extra low voltage systems (12 / 24 vdc) or industrial low voltage systems (AC 110 - 400) , and in some cases a decent amount of both.
As with all current regulations the specific standards each work do may be different, for instance my main point of reference is EN60204 Safety of Electrical Machines, as opposed to those associated with more general power use, e.g, 17th and now 18th edition (IEE Regs), and again different to the standards VicS refers to for Boat systems.
But what is clear is that casting away the advice of such forumites or criticising them simply means their valued advice will simply no longer be available, for fear of being made to look a fool, and unable to prove their case due to digressions. Simpler not to respond in the first place !
RichardS
N/A
I agree. There seems to be a bad practice on here of disparaging posters advice with a sentence starting with "Nonsense" or post a short derogatory comment ending with an exclamation mark rather than simply offering a different opinion.
I make it a practice not to use words like "nonsense" or use exclamation marks, other than in a humorous context.
Richard
BabaYaga
Well-known member
IMHO it is unfortunate that this has become the common way of expressing what the ISO 13297 and 10133 require.
I agree that a connection between the DC negative and the AC protective earth circuit will often or sometimes be a result of adhering to the requirements, but the purpose is clearly not achieve this connection per se.
Instead the purpose is to establish a connection between the AC PE circuit and earth/ground (the water) aboard the craft.
In my view this is made very clear by what the ISO 13297 has to say about how to deal with the AC PE when the craft has a fully insulated DC system (that is: no connection to ground (the water) through the propulsion system or bonding, anodes etc..)
I such cases the AC PE should be connected to the hull (of a metallic hulled craft) or for non-metallic hulls, to the crafts external ground/earth or ground plate.
As I mentioned in a previous post, fully insulated DC systems are not rare and they might become even more common with increased use of flexible couplings and with the practice of bonding and hull anodes falling out of fashion.
In such cases, connecting AC PE to DC negative is not only pointless, it also fails to fulfill the purpose of the requirement in this respect.
Refueler
Well-known member
Its the USCG regs .... I would assume that USCG would carry a bit more weight than ABYC recommendations.
It just illustrates that one 'quoted source' may not always agree with another.
rgarside
Active member
They have the best electrons, really beautiful electrons ...
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
I believe that ring mains are almost unknown outside the UK, and viewed with deep suspicion elsewhere. I had my house professionally rewired last year and it's all radial - not a hint of a ring anywhere.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
A pedant writes: Standards do not, in general, dictate what is correct. They simply allow easy communication between people working on systems. In other words, a new sparky knows what to expect if the DC system is ISO 10133:2017 compliant, but there may be many other safe ways of doing it. For example, nobody seriously suggest that ABYC standards are worse than EU ones, just different.
That said, of course it makes sense to stick to the local standards where possible and sensible to do so.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
That's a two-phase system, as used in the US for 220V supplies to heavy appliances (two standard 110V supplies 180o[\sup] out-of-phase) and from 110V yellow transformers on building sites (because 55V will hurt you but probably not kill you).
Germany, France and, as far as I am aware, everywhere else uses live and neutral, just like us. However, most of their connector systems don't distinguish between them so when you plug something in you can't predict which wire will go up and down and which will stay near earth.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Thank you. Recent change?
PaulRainbow
N/A
The ISO is a standard, no-one working on older boats is required to follow the standards, be pretty daft to ignore too much of it though.
As far as new builds go, they have to adhere to the standard.
As far as new builds go, they have to adhere to the standard.
doug748
Well-known member
Quite, electrical questions are becoming as acrid as those about ground tackle. Posting a simple, practical suggestion on many topics also tends to be met by unhelpful carping, often framed in a derogatory terms.
Some characters seem to imagine their odd contributions impress everyone greatly. Still there we are, pantomime season.
Malabarista
Active member
It’s all very well for you people, both professionals and knowledgeable non professionals, to bandy around ISOs ABYCs and USCGs in an apparently ( but not to me) meaningful discussion. However until ten minutes ago i was completely happy with my recent rewiring efforts putting the shore power earth through a GI and into the consumer unit (MCB and RCBs) and thence to the DC negative busbar. Now I’m just bloody confused ?
But then this whole electrickery malarky is doin’ me ‘ed in anyway
But then this whole electrickery malarky is doin’ me ‘ed in anyway
prv
Well-known member
Most of the earthed types of European plugs are in fact polarised, with the exception of the German Schuko that uses the contacts on the side instead of a pin.
The unearthed one-size-fits-all Europlug is of course unpolarised and could be either way round, but appliances using it also have to be double-insulated - if they were in the UK they'd be allowed to use a plastic "earth" pin just to open the shutters (though many are in fact metal anyway and simply not connected). The Europlug is also limited to 2.5 amps because, having flexible pins to accommodate varying socket types, it might not make a firm enough contact to carry higher currents.
Pete
PaulRainbow
N/A
As is becoming all too common on PBO electrical threads, too much thread drift and waffling is confusing a simple question. I answered the OP's question in post #21, let's hope the rest of the thread hasn't caused the OP even more confusion.
Nothing wrong with what you have done here, for your boat, just make sure there is a connection between DC negative and the anode bonding circuit and and your done.
Refueler
Well-known member
I was dead against radial for simple reason .... and any good electrician will back this up ..... radial means that accumulated power requirement into a single cable end, instead of a ring where it divides.
