sailorman
Well-Known Member
she will be in about 23m of water & i assume she will have to be dispose of due to her location. a much harder job than the Tricolour was
Ship sinking in N Sea- any info?
- Thread starter NickRobinson
- Start date
she will be in about 23m of water & i assume she will have to be dispose of due to her location. a much harder job than the Tricolour was
sailorman
Well-Known Member
http://gcaptain.com/baltic-ace-car-carrier-sinking-near-rotterdam-after-collision/
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – Human error was probably to blame for a collision that killed five crew and sank the Baltic Ace car carrier, its Greek manager said on Thursday, as the Dutch rescuers searched icy North Sea waters for survivors.
The Dutch Defence Ministry said conditions were treacherous when the Corvus J container ship and theBaltic Ace collided, sending 1,400 new cars, mostly Mitsubishis from Japan and Thailand, to the seabed on Wednesday evening.
But Panagiootis Kakoliris, operations manager at Stamco Ship Management Co., Ltd. which managed theBaltic Ace, told Reuters that sea conditions were normal when the 23,500-tonne ship was lost. Six sailors remain missing.
“You cannot control some things. This happened in good weather, normal weather. There was good visibility, so I feel most probably there was a human error,” said Kakoliris.
He did not say where the thought the blame might lie.
The Polish captain was being treated in hospital and it was not known if he had spoken to the authorities about what had caused the collision with the Corvus J, some 50 nautical miles from Rotterdam port.
The car carrier sank in 15 minutes and the wreck is now completely submerged.
The Dutch coastguard said freezing cold and gale force winds meant there was only a slim chance of finding the Baltic Ace’s missing crew. The sailors on the Baltic Ace were from Ukraine, Bulgaria, the Philippinesand Poland. The nationalities of the dead and missing were unknown.
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – Human error was probably to blame for a collision that killed five crew and sank the Baltic Ace car carrier, its Greek manager said on Thursday, as the Dutch rescuers searched icy North Sea waters for survivors.
The Dutch Defence Ministry said conditions were treacherous when the Corvus J container ship and theBaltic Ace collided, sending 1,400 new cars, mostly Mitsubishis from Japan and Thailand, to the seabed on Wednesday evening.
But Panagiootis Kakoliris, operations manager at Stamco Ship Management Co., Ltd. which managed theBaltic Ace, told Reuters that sea conditions were normal when the 23,500-tonne ship was lost. Six sailors remain missing.
“You cannot control some things. This happened in good weather, normal weather. There was good visibility, so I feel most probably there was a human error,” said Kakoliris.
He did not say where the thought the blame might lie.
The Polish captain was being treated in hospital and it was not known if he had spoken to the authorities about what had caused the collision with the Corvus J, some 50 nautical miles from Rotterdam port.
The car carrier sank in 15 minutes and the wreck is now completely submerged.
The Dutch coastguard said freezing cold and gale force winds meant there was only a slim chance of finding the Baltic Ace’s missing crew. The sailors on the Baltic Ace were from Ukraine, Bulgaria, the Philippinesand Poland. The nationalities of the dead and missing were unknown.
Giblets
Well-Known Member
If you go into the Gallery on maritimetraffic.com and search the photos for Baltic Ace her record will come up showing her Last Position Received. Sadly her Service Status is showing as "Lost" and the year lost 2012.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Is it not quite strange that the BBC news has nothing about this?
Giblets
Well-Known Member
st599
Well-Known Member
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Yes, thanks for that. I should have been more specific. I really meant on the TV News.
penfold
Well-Known Member
The routes of the North Sea are congested so using my crystal ball I predict that the MAIB(or whatever the cloggie equivalent is) find that a GPS assisted collision has occurred, with undermanned bridges, poorly/incorrectly set ECDIS and chronically & acutely fatigued watchkeepers as contributory factors.
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onesea
Well-Known Member
There there should legally be 2 men on the bridge of both ships at night, GPS will of been in use so will of "assisted" the collision. In the same way if you drive into some one at 30mph your speedometer will of assisted the collision as you knew what speed you where doing...
Bridges and engine rooms have allot of equipment on often not very well integrated or that user friendly..
24 crew is quite generous 12 might be ok depending on what other duties the crew have supplementary navigation. If the ships are well managed tiredness might not be problem, safe manning can be less than 10 depending on other duties mooring equipment etc.
This makes an interesting read...
I cannot find as much about the "Corcus J", there is just not enough information out there.
One was going SSE ish one was going NE ish sort off... We will have to wait and see it is a busy bit off water, plenty to confuse the men on the bridge...
My thoughts go to the crew and families....
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RIBW
Well-Known Member
BBC TV News coverage of sinking
Don't be surprised - I have now given up on BBC TV news - it seems to be written by and targeted at Social Science graduates in SE England and football enthusiasts. I now watch either Sky News (which was entertaining and very informative throughout the Jubilee River Pageant for example) or Al Jazeera now that it easily available on Freeview.
I heard about the sinking on BBC World Service Radio, which gave it reasonable coverage.
Rant over
Bob
Don't be surprised - I have now given up on BBC TV news - it seems to be written by and targeted at Social Science graduates in SE England and football enthusiasts. I now watch either Sky News (which was entertaining and very informative throughout the Jubilee River Pageant for example) or Al Jazeera now that it easily available on Freeview.
I heard about the sinking on BBC World Service Radio, which gave it reasonable coverage.
Rant over
Bob
sailorman
Well-Known Member
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Check out the ais track
the Baltic Ace turned to port into the path of the Corvus J
the Baltic Ace turned to port into the path of the Corvus J
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Breskens life boat report
Rescue Reports
Heavy search after sinking freighter
Breskens, 5 to 6 December 2012
The lifeboat Breskens is pulled after a cargo ship sank in the North Sea as a result of a collision. After a hard search are still 7 people missing.
During Wednesday receive the message of the Dutch Coastguard car carrier Baltic Ace that has come into collision with the container ship Corvus J. The Baltic Ace also reports that the water makes and sinking. On board are 24 passengers.
The Coastguard immediately lifeboat stations KNRM of Neeltje Jans, Stellendam and Breskens and various helicopters alarmed.
Rescue Station Breskens speed quickly with lifeboat Zeemanshoop and then heads to the position of the Baltic Ace, which is located about 36 miles Northwest of Breskens located.
Due to the weather conditions (8 Bft and waves up to 6 meters) is a difficult journey. After 2 hours we will reach the Zeemanshoop the crash site and joins the other seeking units.
The high waves and at times very poor visibility due to snow and hail make the search difficult and very difficult. The crew gets Breskens include 2 blank immersion suits from the water, farther we find only wreck wood and other stuff as silent witnesses to the collision.
Something for 2 hours in the night, the chances of finding survivors highly considered nil and the Coast Guard decided to discontinue the search.
Lifeboat Zeemanshoop encourages this course back to Breskens. Half hours later we walk our home port.
Check out the new items of Broadcasting Zealand, NOS and VRT.
Alarm time: 19:58 hours
Wind: North 8 Bft.
Visibility: Poor & Bad during precipitation (dark)
Note: At the end of the search, there were 13 people rescued and 4 bodies recovered. 7 people were still missing. The crew of rescue station Breskens would like to express its condolences to the families of the victims and missing people and wish them much strength.
Rescue Reports
Heavy search after sinking freighter
Breskens, 5 to 6 December 2012
The lifeboat Breskens is pulled after a cargo ship sank in the North Sea as a result of a collision. After a hard search are still 7 people missing.
During Wednesday receive the message of the Dutch Coastguard car carrier Baltic Ace that has come into collision with the container ship Corvus J. The Baltic Ace also reports that the water makes and sinking. On board are 24 passengers.
The Coastguard immediately lifeboat stations KNRM of Neeltje Jans, Stellendam and Breskens and various helicopters alarmed.
Rescue Station Breskens speed quickly with lifeboat Zeemanshoop and then heads to the position of the Baltic Ace, which is located about 36 miles Northwest of Breskens located.
Due to the weather conditions (8 Bft and waves up to 6 meters) is a difficult journey. After 2 hours we will reach the Zeemanshoop the crash site and joins the other seeking units.
The high waves and at times very poor visibility due to snow and hail make the search difficult and very difficult. The crew gets Breskens include 2 blank immersion suits from the water, farther we find only wreck wood and other stuff as silent witnesses to the collision.
Something for 2 hours in the night, the chances of finding survivors highly considered nil and the Coast Guard decided to discontinue the search.
Lifeboat Zeemanshoop encourages this course back to Breskens. Half hours later we walk our home port.
Check out the new items of Broadcasting Zealand, NOS and VRT.
Alarm time: 19:58 hours
Wind: North 8 Bft.
Visibility: Poor & Bad during precipitation (dark)
Note: At the end of the search, there were 13 people rescued and 4 bodies recovered. 7 people were still missing. The crew of rescue station Breskens would like to express its condolences to the families of the victims and missing people and wish them much strength.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Facebook comments
Reply
Johnathan Smith says:
December 6, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Baltic Ace broke the cardinal rule of altering course to port in a crossing situation…
Reply
Saras Sharma-Gounder says:
December 6, 2012 at 8:43 pm
Being usefully unemployed..
Reply
Johnathan Smith says:
December 6, 2012 at 8:46 pm
Haaa..yeah, finally getting to catch up with the rest of the world and news…
Reply
Anders Hanghøj Sørensen says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Assuming they were within sight of eachother, Corvus J having Baltic Ace to her starboard was obliged to give way, and Baltic Ace to maintain her heading and speed. I cannot see that Baltic Ace altered coarse to port, but if she did that was a mistake. A mistake following another (bigger?) mistake by Corvus J, who should have avoided to come (too)close. Right?
Reply
Scheepsspotter Shipspotter says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Corvus J got also some damage.
Reply
Adrian Mariak says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:39 pm
R.I.P TOMASZ
Reply
Rik Krantz says:
December 7, 2012 at 12:06 am
In the AIS video the Corvus J turns to stbd to see the Baltic Ace on "1 whistle" and the Baltic Ace did as stated and bailed to port – big no no!
Reply
Kamin Lee Lambertson says:
December 7, 2012 at 2:30 am
Never never turn to port. "when in danger when in doubt (in extremis), run in circles (always to stbd) scream and shout (sound the danger signal).
Reply
Kamin says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Never never turn to port. “when in danger when in doubt (in extremis), run in circles (always to stbd) scream and shout” (sound the danger signal).
Reply
Johnathan Smith says:
December 6, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Baltic Ace broke the cardinal rule of altering course to port in a crossing situation…
Reply
Saras Sharma-Gounder says:
December 6, 2012 at 8:43 pm
Being usefully unemployed..
Reply
Johnathan Smith says:
December 6, 2012 at 8:46 pm
Haaa..yeah, finally getting to catch up with the rest of the world and news…
Reply
Anders Hanghøj Sørensen says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Assuming they were within sight of eachother, Corvus J having Baltic Ace to her starboard was obliged to give way, and Baltic Ace to maintain her heading and speed. I cannot see that Baltic Ace altered coarse to port, but if she did that was a mistake. A mistake following another (bigger?) mistake by Corvus J, who should have avoided to come (too)close. Right?
Reply
Scheepsspotter Shipspotter says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Corvus J got also some damage.
Reply
Adrian Mariak says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:39 pm
R.I.P TOMASZ
Reply
Rik Krantz says:
December 7, 2012 at 12:06 am
In the AIS video the Corvus J turns to stbd to see the Baltic Ace on "1 whistle" and the Baltic Ace did as stated and bailed to port – big no no!
Reply
Kamin Lee Lambertson says:
December 7, 2012 at 2:30 am
Never never turn to port. "when in danger when in doubt (in extremis), run in circles (always to stbd) scream and shout (sound the danger signal).
Reply
Kamin says:
December 6, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Never never turn to port. “when in danger when in doubt (in extremis), run in circles (always to stbd) scream and shout” (sound the danger signal).
MASH
N/A
Some old wounds on Corvus J, she's been in the wars before this...
Looking at the damage on the fo'csl stbd side it looks to me a similar shape as the distinctive transition from the bow's flare to the vertical hull side roughly above the anchor on the transporter (perhaps a bit aft of that actually) which would imply a bow to bow contact at a fairly large angle (not far from a right angle probably) with Corvus J's bow and maybe the bulb thingy burying itself in the stbd bow of Baltic Ace and twisting free as BA ran on. The scraping on both sides of CJ's bow isn't a major glancing blow and looks consistent with insertion into the other ship's side. That suggestion is also, I think, consistent with the (limited) AIS info we have and could account for the rapidity of the sinking. The free surface effect on a car deck from a hole that size would have her over in no time.
Speculation I know, but until the wreck is examined we won't know for sure.
Looking at the damage on the fo'csl stbd side it looks to me a similar shape as the distinctive transition from the bow's flare to the vertical hull side roughly above the anchor on the transporter (perhaps a bit aft of that actually) which would imply a bow to bow contact at a fairly large angle (not far from a right angle probably) with Corvus J's bow and maybe the bulb thingy burying itself in the stbd bow of Baltic Ace and twisting free as BA ran on. The scraping on both sides of CJ's bow isn't a major glancing blow and looks consistent with insertion into the other ship's side. That suggestion is also, I think, consistent with the (limited) AIS info we have and could account for the rapidity of the sinking. The free surface effect on a car deck from a hole that size would have her over in no time.
Speculation I know, but until the wreck is examined we won't know for sure.
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penfold
Well-Known Member
There's what the safe manning ticket says on it, then there's the reality of modern merchant shipping; SMS paperwork, PSC paperwork, cargo paperwork, voyage planning, chart corrections, PMS admin, the charterers/super/DPA phoning/emailing, ballast planning, stores/chandlery/bunker planning, customs admin. It's bad enough for us engineers, I wouldn't be a deckie for a million pounds; actually driving the ship is a pleasant and rare break from papershuffling. Some trades are worse than others; in my experience feederliners like CorvusJ and car carriers like the Baltic Ace are the worst for crew fatigue as you're in and out of harbours like a yoyo and the rest hours go out the window.
Bad management is unfortunately common; if the ship's schedule has been written by some eedjit with no comprehension of how a ship works, or worse, they do know but just don't give a carp about the wellbeing and safety of the crew, then there is little the crew can do about it other than look for another job.
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penfold
Well-Known Member
I would speculate that the fo'csl has pushed the car carrier over slightly and the bulbous bow has then gutted the turn of her bilge like a fillet knife; once they separated the hole caused by the bulbous bow is nice and deep and gushing like the fire hydrant from hell.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
check out the ais video, the Baltic Ace turned very quickly to PORT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_sC9DyWOY4w
i doubt the engineers got out from below in time
Ric
Well-Known Member
If you wind to +7 secs in that youtube video, you will see that Corvus J had already started an avoiding turn to starboard, but that its AIS vector still predicted a collision with Baltic Ace. This might explain why Baltic Ace turned to starboard just before the collision.
Class A AIS only transmits heading info every 3 seconds.
I wonder if this will go down as the first ever AIS-assisted collision
Class A AIS only transmits heading info every 3 seconds.
I wonder if this will go down as the first ever AIS-assisted collision
sailorman
Well-Known Member
http://gcaptain.com/dutch-media-interviews-baltic-ace-rescuers/
Baltic Ace Update: Search Ends, Dutch Media Pounces, and Jurisdiction Questioned
By gCaptain Staff On December 7, 2012
MV Arca, an oil spill response vessel of the Dutch government
Search for missing crewmembers Baltic Ace has been seized
By Tobias Pieffers, Local Correspondent
ROTTERDAM - The Dutch Coastguard has seized the search for the six crewmembers still missing after the sinking of car carrier Baltic Ace. They are assumed dead because of the bad weather conditions and cold water, and possibly the bodies are trapped inside the sunken vessel.
At the scene of the collision is the Dutch government owned hydrograpic research and oil spill response vessel M/V Arca. Arca’s crew has placed five cardinal buoys at the scene marking the location of the wreck. The vessel will stay at the scene to ensure safe traffic near the Baltic Ace.
The wreck forms an immediate danger to traffic. The vessel sunk in an incredibly busy area, just south of the beginning of the Eurogeul which leads to the port of Rotterdam. According to Mariska Verbeij, spokeswoman of the Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure and the Environment, the Arca has conducted a small survey using it’s multi beam echo-sounder. “Due to bad weather conditions and limited amount of water above the wreck a more detailed survey using an external echo-sounder (called ‘the fish’ by the vessels crew) could not be conducted. But the images we’ve obtained so far show the vessel is intact.” The water depth at the scene is 36 meters, there’s only 6 meters of water between the Baltic Ace and the surface. This afternoon the Dutch Coastguard announced that the Arca will stay at the scene, al least until coming monday. “On monday a new assessment will be made deciding weather or not the Arca will have stay longer to guide traffic at the scene”, a spokesperson said.
The Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure and the Environment maintains contact with Baltic Ace owner Baltic Highway Piraeus regarding the salvage of the ship. “We are waiting for the owner to come up with a plan for salvaging the vessel, but this usually takes time.” Smit Salvage has offered ‘to help with the salvage of the Baltic Ace. “We’ve had contact with the insurance company and the owner of the vessel”, press officer Martijn Schuttevaer of Boskalis-Smit Salvage says. “With these kind of accidents the first to steps are the search and rescue of crew members and the removal of all oils within the ship. We are waiting for the Dutch government to decide weather they find salvage of the vessel necessary or not.”
On board the Baltic Ace were 1417 cars of the brand Mitsubishi. Some Dutch media report rumours that there were also some Ferrari, Bentley’s, Rolls Royces’and Lamborghini’s on board.
Dutch media
Dutch newspapers are all reporting on the accident. In today’s copy off De Volkskrant 40 year old diver Jurrie Mulier of the 40th squadron of the Belgian air force tells how he rescued seven people that were floating around in a life raft. “The raft was dancing on the waves. The zippers of the raft were closed so we could not see weather there were people inside. I went down into the cold water and had to unleash myself from the helicopter to make sure Iwould not endanger it’s flight.” Inside the raft were seven crew members, the article states. Two of them were only wearing underwear. The raft was filled with cold water and all crewmembers were suffering severe hypothermia. “If we had arrived 30 minutes we would have been too late”, Mulier says. Mulier was lowered to the raft seven times to get all the crew members out.
Several newspapers report stories from fishermen who witnessed the sinking of the vessel. In De Telegraaf fisherman René Sperling tells how he heard the distress call on the radio. “The captain was panicking. We are sinking, we need help fast, I heard him shout. He sounded very emotional, upset.” Sperling assisted in the search and rescue operation but only found some empty rafts and vests and some driftwood.
In Algemeen Dagblad fishermen Wout Boelaars says he saw on the radar how the two vessels did not steer clear from each other but into each other. “The Corpus J was altering course to starboard while the Baltic Ace made a sharp turn to port.” According to him the collision is the result of a communication error.
Investigation
The Dutch police have announced they will not investigate the accident. “The accident happened outside the 12 mile zone, the so called territorial waters, meaning we have no jurisdiction”, the police states on their website. “Another reason we will not investigate is that the vessels sail under flags of The Bahamas and Cyprus.” The Dutch police did direct the identification and salvaging of the victims. The Dutch Safety Board, an independent investigative bureau, has offered both countries their help with the investigation. “By international law. Both countries are compelled to investigate the accident”, the Safety
Baltic Ace Update: Search Ends, Dutch Media Pounces, and Jurisdiction Questioned
By gCaptain Staff On December 7, 2012
MV Arca, an oil spill response vessel of the Dutch government
Search for missing crewmembers Baltic Ace has been seized
By Tobias Pieffers, Local Correspondent
ROTTERDAM - The Dutch Coastguard has seized the search for the six crewmembers still missing after the sinking of car carrier Baltic Ace. They are assumed dead because of the bad weather conditions and cold water, and possibly the bodies are trapped inside the sunken vessel.
At the scene of the collision is the Dutch government owned hydrograpic research and oil spill response vessel M/V Arca. Arca’s crew has placed five cardinal buoys at the scene marking the location of the wreck. The vessel will stay at the scene to ensure safe traffic near the Baltic Ace.
The wreck forms an immediate danger to traffic. The vessel sunk in an incredibly busy area, just south of the beginning of the Eurogeul which leads to the port of Rotterdam. According to Mariska Verbeij, spokeswoman of the Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure and the Environment, the Arca has conducted a small survey using it’s multi beam echo-sounder. “Due to bad weather conditions and limited amount of water above the wreck a more detailed survey using an external echo-sounder (called ‘the fish’ by the vessels crew) could not be conducted. But the images we’ve obtained so far show the vessel is intact.” The water depth at the scene is 36 meters, there’s only 6 meters of water between the Baltic Ace and the surface. This afternoon the Dutch Coastguard announced that the Arca will stay at the scene, al least until coming monday. “On monday a new assessment will be made deciding weather or not the Arca will have stay longer to guide traffic at the scene”, a spokesperson said.
The Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure and the Environment maintains contact with Baltic Ace owner Baltic Highway Piraeus regarding the salvage of the ship. “We are waiting for the owner to come up with a plan for salvaging the vessel, but this usually takes time.” Smit Salvage has offered ‘to help with the salvage of the Baltic Ace. “We’ve had contact with the insurance company and the owner of the vessel”, press officer Martijn Schuttevaer of Boskalis-Smit Salvage says. “With these kind of accidents the first to steps are the search and rescue of crew members and the removal of all oils within the ship. We are waiting for the Dutch government to decide weather they find salvage of the vessel necessary or not.”
On board the Baltic Ace were 1417 cars of the brand Mitsubishi. Some Dutch media report rumours that there were also some Ferrari, Bentley’s, Rolls Royces’and Lamborghini’s on board.
Dutch media
Dutch newspapers are all reporting on the accident. In today’s copy off De Volkskrant 40 year old diver Jurrie Mulier of the 40th squadron of the Belgian air force tells how he rescued seven people that were floating around in a life raft. “The raft was dancing on the waves. The zippers of the raft were closed so we could not see weather there were people inside. I went down into the cold water and had to unleash myself from the helicopter to make sure Iwould not endanger it’s flight.” Inside the raft were seven crew members, the article states. Two of them were only wearing underwear. The raft was filled with cold water and all crewmembers were suffering severe hypothermia. “If we had arrived 30 minutes we would have been too late”, Mulier says. Mulier was lowered to the raft seven times to get all the crew members out.
Several newspapers report stories from fishermen who witnessed the sinking of the vessel. In De Telegraaf fisherman René Sperling tells how he heard the distress call on the radio. “The captain was panicking. We are sinking, we need help fast, I heard him shout. He sounded very emotional, upset.” Sperling assisted in the search and rescue operation but only found some empty rafts and vests and some driftwood.
In Algemeen Dagblad fishermen Wout Boelaars says he saw on the radar how the two vessels did not steer clear from each other but into each other. “The Corpus J was altering course to starboard while the Baltic Ace made a sharp turn to port.” According to him the collision is the result of a communication error.
Investigation
The Dutch police have announced they will not investigate the accident. “The accident happened outside the 12 mile zone, the so called territorial waters, meaning we have no jurisdiction”, the police states on their website. “Another reason we will not investigate is that the vessels sail under flags of The Bahamas and Cyprus.” The Dutch police did direct the identification and salvaging of the victims. The Dutch Safety Board, an independent investigative bureau, has offered both countries their help with the investigation. “By international law. Both countries are compelled to investigate the accident”, the Safety
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