Self Tacking headsails .... setup

[Refueler]

On our Maxi 999 the ST jib's sheet goes from the clew to the block sliding on the ST traveller, then forward to a block behind the forestay, then back under the ST traveller to the outermost sheave on the starboard deck organizer (the one in your first picture between the grab rail and the stainless air vent) then back to one of the clutches in front of the cabin top winch. This works well but does make it difficult to open the anchor box, not really a problem on a Baltic boat as we hardly ever anchor from the bow (the anchor locker contains just the gas bottles and the bow mooring lines).

My wife in particular likes the ST jib as it lets her single-hand the boat and make effortless tacks. Since our ST traveller is not as wide as yours it also means that the ST jib sheets much closer to the centre-line than the genoa, improving pointing upwind. Our ST jib has three leech battens parallel to the forestay (so they furl) giving a bit of roach and making its shape rather good. But downwind it's a real dog (small, terrible sheeting angle) and you're always wishing you had the genoa on.

Once I get it rigged ... I plan to add an extra line via the central small block .... to be able to bring the clew inboard to enable close hauled. Something that Selden etc. all mention.

Its funny you mention the anchor locker .... I don't have one - but sheet will pass over the forehatch ....

 

[Daydream believer]

I am trying to visualise your boom comment .....

If I was to use a jib boom - I'm not actually - but lets say I was to.

The boom would be clipped to the Ramshorn under the furler and jib loose footed to the clew ... the boom would clip to the sheet attached at clew ...

as shown by illustrations earlier ....

The sail is able to be slacked off and boom can stay inside guard lines ... as its primary function is to keep clew from folding back on itself ..

the idea is that you do not adjust the clew on the boom. As the boom goes out to right angles the pivot point should be aft of the forestay. That allows the sail to form a bigger curve as the distance from its tack point to clew on the boom is reduced ( by virtue of its setup) this is better for running. As the boom comes back to the CL it tightens the foot & the sheet helps bring down the leech.
If you think about it, there is no point whatsoever having a boom for up wind sailing. The boom is more for holding the sail out on a reach or run. So that is why the boom needs to clear the guard rail
the lorry tarp gybe was poking a bit of fun at Neeves when he described his ST sail As being flat. All in jest.

 

[Refueler]

the idea is that you do not adjust the clew on the boom. As the boom goes out to right angles the pivot point should be aft of the forestay. That allows the sail to form a bigger curve as the distance from its tack point to clew on the boom is reduced ( by virtue of its setup) this is better for running. As the boom comes back to the CL it tightens the foot & the sheet helps bring down the leech.
If you think about it, there is no point whatsoever having a boom for up wind sailing. The boom is more for holding the sail out on a reach or run. So that is why the boom needs to clear the guard rail
the lorry tarp gybe was poking a bit of fun at Neeves when he described his ST sail As being flat. All in jest.

Fine ... if you look at the photos - you will see its impossible to attach front end of boom at actual stay centre ... it will always be aft of that.

As to boom for what point of sail .... I agree - but the upwind is also catered for as the boom can assist as yopu say yourself ... "

As the boom comes back to the CL it tightens the foot & the sheet helps bring down the leech.

Which can in set right replace the extra lines that manufacturers talk about to 'flatten' the sail

 

[Refueler]

I think people are getting bogged down in geometry ....

My intention as said ... is to just have a sail that works reasonably for relaxed 'outings' ... no need to get into high spec ...

For real set ... I would revert back to full genny ....

 

[Daydream believer]

Which can in set right replace the extra lines that manufacturers talk about to 'flatten' the sail

you do not NEED extra lines. A ST jib should fit to the car on the track. It should not need lines to Flatten it up wind. Only adjustment is sheet & halyard tension. Lines bringing the sail to the centre when going upwind do not adjust the fullness of the sail. They can only adjust the angle of attack.
trying to fly genoas off the ST is usually a waste of time because, firstly the sheeting angle is so wrong as to be a joke. Secondly setting up a sheet is just another faff.
you either set the ST correctly or do not bother.

 

[Refueler]

you do not NEED extra lines. A ST jib should fit to the car on the track. It should not need lines to Flatten it up wind. Only adjustment is sheet & halyard tension. Lines bringing the sail to the centre when going upwind do not adjust the fullness of the sail. They can only adjust the angle of attack.
trying to fly genoas off the ST is usually a waste of time because, firstly the sheeting angle is so wrong as to be a joke. Secondly setting up a sheet is just another faff.
you either set the ST correctly or do not bother.

Instead of getting in a 'tizzy' with me ... why not inform likes of Selden ?

I could cut and paste their blurb ... but that's a good job for you to go and read ....

Lets keep this sweet please.

 

[Daydream believer]

. No tizzyintended
but please if you get a chance- post a link. I can always learn

 

[TSB240]

I think people are getting bogged down in geometry ....

My intention as said ... is to just have a sail that works reasonably for relaxed 'outings' ... no need to get into high spec ...

For real set ... I would revert back to full genny ....

The GENOA for our Hanse 301 was designed such that it could be reefed and set on the self tacking track. This was a great compromise for most cruisers and especially useful if short tacking as often required for us in the Menai Strait.

I never had the need for any form of extra lines to control the lead of the self tacking jib. The track did have adjustable end stops but sheeting and twist control of the dedicated ST was best controlled by either sheet tension, mounting position of sheet onto clew board and batten selection.

In most circumstances any extra degree of centering would stall the blade and ruin the flow over the mainsail.
The only reason for additional lines would be for effective heaving to or backwinding of dedicated ST blade.

I avoided using these as with the genoa set on the ST track as I could just use the permanently rigged genoa sheets if needing to heave to.

For relaxed outings the reefed genoa on the self tacking track was a great compromise.

The biggest problem with a dedicated blade style self tacker is off wind sailing making it flick flack from one side to another. I tried a whisker pole using a cut up windsurfer mast but the genoa was so much better and gave a much better balance of sail area on a dead downwind run.

Just my practical experience not some pdf BS.

 

[Refueler]

The GENOA for our Hanse 301 was designed such that it could be reefed and set on the self tacking track. This was a great compromise for most cruisers and especially useful if short tacking as often required for us in the Menai Strait.

I never had the need for any form of extra lines to control the lead of the self tacking jib. The track did have adjustable end stops but sheeting and twist control of the dedicated ST was best controlled by either sheet tension, mounting position of sheet onto clew board and batten selection.

In most circumstances any extra degree of centering would stall the blade and ruin the flow over the mainsail.
The only reason for additional lines would be for effective heaving to or backwinding of dedicated ST blade.

I avoided using these as with the genoa set on the ST track as I could just use the permanently rigged genoa sheets if needing to heave to.

For relaxed outings the reefed genoa on the self tacking track was a great compromise.

The biggest problem with a dedicated blade style self tacker is off wind sailing making it flick flack from one side to another. I tried a whisker pole using a cut up windsurfer mast but the genoa was so much better and gave a much better balance of sail area on a dead downwind run.

Just my practical experience not some pdf BS.

Thank you for that ... it trends with my thoughts ....

Interesting to see if it plays out on my boat .... if it does - then it saves me a serious amount of money.

 

[ashtead]

I should have said our self tacker reefs quite happily -just don’t let off the furler line so much as you pull on the line hauling out from cockpit . Use it sometimes to stabilise the nose if motoring with heavy reef in.

 

[The Q]

To be technically correct, a jib boom is not the item attached to the sail foot, the proper name for that is a jib club. If you stand on the foredeck with one whanging around you'll know why.
A jib boom is an extension of a bowsprit normally on a square rigged sailing ship.

As for a jib club I have one on my little boat, on my boat, the pivot point of the club is 1/5 of the way back from its fore point and therefore from the luff / foot junction.
Therefore she has 4 jib sheets, !!
The windward normal sheet controls the jib normal leeward position.
The forward sheets are connected to the leading edge of the jib club, if you pull one it holds the jib out the other way for goosewinging.

Tacking itself is no problem, going up wind you set the jib sheets and then forget about it, just keep tacking.

The only problem I have is I have a fixed seated steering position, and can only see the bottom foot of the jib. Awkward as I'm used to sailing close hauled by the telltales on the jib.

 

[Refueler]

OK .... after completing a job on the 38 ... I rigged the ST with an old jib sheet I have .... played around with it ... literally no wind to speak of .. so it needs a trial sail ...

But setup was as i suspected ........ clew to traveller car ... fwd to deck block behind forestay ... then to block clipped to side traveller leg ... then back to cockpit winch. Simple.

 

[Refueler]

Here's the final as I suspect previous owner tried ... why he had to cut a good sail when the original ST sail was in a bag ???

As previous post .. its now obvious he had a single line simple sheet arrangement .. which is what I will do. It will just mean that when Forehatch is to be opened .. sheet will need to be moved aside.

I have pondered using a jib boom to have sheet run along boom back to stem fitting ... but at present intentions are to get boat classed for Baltic Race / Regattas ... so better not to modify from designed ...

 

[Daydream believer]

If that is the self tacking jib (is it) why do you have 2 sheets hanging from it?


Oh . by the way-- Tidy that main up a bit please. Makes it look untidy
& do not give us that "in a hurry" crap. Just as easy to do it right first time & quicker in the long run.

 

[The Q]

A self tacker can have two jib sheets , you just set each one to the angle you want and then tack away.

 

[Daydream believer]

A self tacker can have two jib sheets , you just set each one to the angle you want and then tack away.

That is not how that one seems to be set up though is it?
We have already had extensive discussions on the options for his boat & this single sheet option would seem the most sensible. But why the extra sheets unless they are barber haulers. However, one of them seems to be connected to the main sheet leaving only one.

 

[Refueler]

Guys ... the photo is with my addition blue lines via Windows Paint ...

The genny in the photo is a full genny that has normal sheets back to side deck cars ... it is not the ST jib. That is still laid out on my workshop sail floor.

The main was just after a trip .... Its actually a real pain to flake down onto the boom ... its a laminate sail and stiff as old nick !! Previous owner obviously had similar trouble as there are lazy jacklines in the locker, he must have un-rigged them ... I cannot imagine that sail dropping easily between LJ 's ...

 

[Refueler]

When we took the boat from Sweden ... seller told us that the ST jib was not there and he had been cutting taping one of the larger normal gennys to create ready for sending to sailmaker.
We went through sail bags and just hoisted first sails to hand that appeared correct.

That resulted in a No1 Genny and the laminate main.

Not until later when sails were off boat for storage - did we find the proper ST jib ... in what appears to be good condition as well !!

The sail he'd been cutting - was in fact the laminate genny - mate to the main ... and its absolutely ruined.

But we have two mains ... two gennys .... ST jib .... spinnaker.

The Spinny is set already in bag with the 'toilet bowl hoop' and fabric cover ... which TBH I don't like ... seen too many of them hang up ... much prefer to just grab handfuls and dowse !

 

[Daydream believer]

The Spinny is set already in bag with the 'toilet bowl hoop' and fabric cover ... which TBH I don't like ... seen too many of them hang up ... much prefer to just grab handfuls and dowse !

+1
Workof the devil

 

[Refueler]

Self Tacker used and only item is that sheet hits fwd side stay ... looks like I need to source some traveller stops for the rail.

But it works with just simple one line from clew - to traveller then fwd to block at tack ,,, back to cockpit .... video later.