Self Tacking headsails .... setup

[William_H]

Hello Nigel I am just waffling on here not likely to tell you anything new but others may find something of interest. To me a self tacking jib has a disadvantage that it is not easy to back the jib. On my little boat I always back the jib to depart swing mooring and partially back it each time I tack. ie hold off with jib backed just a moment before releasing jib sheet to aid the boat turning. Essential if you get in irons. (accidental heave too.)
Now a ST jib needs to be set like any triangular sail (main sail) with both the foot and leach tensioned to give correct shape. Plus it must be allowed to be set closer or broader to centre line for running reaching or beating. We usually use a boom on main sail for foot stretch. Main sheet can then set both load on leach and angle to wind. (centre line) Now a main sail can be loose footed with no boom but very difficult to set well.
Likewise a ST jib can be on a boom which is set and adjusted just like a main sail. You can have a traveller to permit boom to go out while maintaining down ward pressure on boom or just a simple centre attachment of ST sheet.
The alternative is to have no boom on ST jib. Just like an over lapping jib the sheeting point is critical. Too far forward (close to jib clew) means leach isn pulled tight but foot is too loose. Too far back and foot is too tight leach is loose. (top luffs before bottom) .
Now problem is to find enough room between the mast and the clew of the jib to get enough aft pull (foot stretch) which of course is dependent on height of the clew above the deck. ie sheet should go from clew to sheeting point (sheave) at aprox. 45degrees to get equal pull aft and down. This requirement an limit the foot length possible for ST jib. (if it were on a boom it could extend aft almost to mast.
Next problem is we must allow the jib clew to sit out from centre line ie roughly parallel to main sail boom. If we use a single sheeting point on centre line we will in allowing the clew to go out wards will also allow it to rise freeing leach and losing shape. So we use a track to move the sheeting point outwards while maintainiong down ward and aft pull on clew. All good assuming there is not too much friction in traveller car. However as car moves outward on a staight track it tends to pull sheet aft. To the extent that it may stop the car rolling. Answer is to fit a curved track centre of radius at tack of jib.
Next problem is that we need to be able adjust the ST sheet tension from the cockpit. As Nigel's diagrams show if we klead the sheetto one side down side deck we will put more sheet tension on one tack than the other. Hence they can take sheet o bow then back to cockpit or up the mast. (yikes)
So there are a few thoughts on ST jib. I have not felt the need to fit an ST jib but if I did it would be with a boom. ol'will

 

[Refueler]

I don't think that's always true.
The tension on the sheet pulls the sail in and hence the car out.
So long as the lead forwards is pulling the car in less than he sail is pulling the car out, then it's a happy system.
Putting a purchase between car and sail can change that balance.
AIUI, some boats work with a straight track.
I think there have even been one or two boats with self tacking jibs with a little overlap, the track curving forwards around the mast?

There may be some sublties making it work for varying amounts of leach tension/twist in the jib. Cranking on a lot of leach tension might pull the car in on a system that works fine with a more open leach. Also on a cruising yacht, you need it to work cracked off for a close reach.

The thing you may miss is being able to easily back the jib!

Even Selden and other brands talk about it ....

Its logical in my mind - if the track does not follow that circumferal curve - then sheet tension will change as the car moves .... causing that lock-ups some people report.

Selden as example do mention having a 'downhaul' to flatten the sail

At this stage of course - the project is to sort a system for the boat - finer points / additions will be clear later ...

 

[Minerva]

Got the third one of these, but as a hanked on staysail. Boom sits on the stay, and has 2 blocks for sheet. Works well as it is largely used when not going downwind. Slab reefed, so good shape when the wind pipes up. Genoa on roller furling, so covers all the bases. Others in the class have set same up for roller furling, but not sure how the lines have been altered.

This is the same set up as I want on my next boat - a big genny for off the wind and a slab reefed staysail for upwind work. Feels like it ought to be bombproof with little downsides.

Even Selden and other brands talk about it ....

Its logical in my mind - if the track does not follow that circumferal curve - then sheet tension will change as the car moves .... causing that lock-ups some people report.

Selden as example do mention having a 'downhaul' to flatten the sail

At this stage of course - the project is to sort a system for the boat - finer points / additions will be clear later ...

I think the first course of action you need to attend to is painting your decks. Who thought scarlet deck paint was a good idea!

What's the new boat?

 

[Refueler]

Hello Nigel I am just waffling on here not likely to tell you anything new but others may find something of interest. To me a self tacking jib has a disadvantage that it is not easy to back the jib. On my little boat I always back the jib to depart swing mooring and partially back it each time I tack. ie hold off with jib backed just a moment before releasing jib sheet to aid the boat turning. Essential if you get in irons. (accidental heave too.)
Now a ST jib needs to be set like any triangular sail (main sail) with both the foot and leach tensioned to give correct shape. Plus it must be allowed to be set closer or broader to centre line for running reaching or beating. We usually use a boom on main sail for foot stretch. Main sheet can then set both load on leach and angle to wind. (centre line) Now a main sail can be loose footed with no boom but very difficult to set well.
Likewise a ST jib can be on a boom which is set and adjusted just like a main sail. You can have a traveller to permit boom to go out while maintaining down ward pressure on boom or just a simple centre attachment of ST sheet.
The alternative is to have no boom on ST jib. Just like an over lapping jib the sheeting point is critical. Too far forward (close to jib clew) means leach isn pulled tight but foot is too loose. Too far back and foot is too tight leach is loose. (top luffs before bottom) .
Now problem is to find enough room between the mast and the clew of the jib to get enough aft pull (foot stretch) which of course is dependent on height of the clew above the deck. ie sheet should go from clew to sheeting point (sheave) at aprox. 45degrees to get equal pull aft and down. This requirement an limit the foot length possible for ST jib. (if it were on a boom it could extend aft almost to mast.
Next problem is we must allow the jib clew to sit out from centre line ie roughly parallel to main sail boom. If we use a single sheeting point on centre line we will in allowing the clew to go out wards will also allow it to rise freeing leach and losing shape. So we use a track to move the sheeting point outwards while maintainiong down ward and aft pull on clew. All good assuming there is not too much friction in traveller car. However as car moves outward on a staight track it tends to pull sheet aft. To the extent that it may stop the car rolling. Answer is to fit a curved track centre of radius at tack of jib.
Next problem is that we need to be able adjust the ST sheet tension from the cockpit. As Nigel's diagrams show if we klead the sheetto one side down side deck we will put more sheet tension on one tack than the other. Hence they can take sheet o bow then back to cockpit or up the mast. (yikes)
So there are a few thoughts on ST jib. I have not felt the need to fit an ST jib but if I did it would be with a boom. ol'will

Quite a read ... but I'm with you ....

Not for a jib boom at this stage ... but maybe later.

My thoughts are to have a short foot jib ... which is what previous guy was trying to achieve ... as he said - he was cutting the original sail to fit - then intended to have one made ...

It will be a 'blade sail' .... old term for a very tall but narrow footed sail.

 

[Refueler]

This is the same set up as I want on my next boat - a big genny for off the wind and a slab reefed staysail for upwind work. Feels like it ought to be bombproof with little downsides.

I think the first course of action you need to attend to is painting your decks. Who thought scarlet deck paint was a good idea!

What's the new boat?

I have never liked Red boats .... but this one was such a good deal ... it sort of grows on you !!

But its not deck paint ... at least he didn't add the 'grit' ... he relied on the deck stipules to give it footing. If you wear cheap hard sole trainers ... its not so good ... but soft soled are fine.

Funny thing .... boat has enormous word TORO blazened across transom. People think its the boats name - especially when think of Red Bull and the red hull / decks. Actual boats name is tiny letters on each 1/4 .... ANISETTE.

The boat is CONQUBIN 38CR ...... CR being Cruiser - Racer.

Review of Conqubin 38 Cr - www.yachtdatabase.com

 

[Minerva]

I have never liked Red boats .... but this one was such a good deal ... it sort of grows on you !!

But its not deck paint ... at least he didn't add the 'grit' ... he relied on the deck stipules to give it footing. If you wear cheap hard sole trainers ... its not so good ... but soft soled are fine.

Funny thing .... boat has enormous word TORO blazened across transom. People think its the boats name - especially when think of Red Bull and the red hull / decks. Actual boats name is tiny letters on each 1/4 .... ANISETTE.

The boat is CONQUBIN 38CR ...... CR being Cruiser - Racer.

Review of Conqubin 38 Cr - www.yachtdatabase.com

Looks a fun boat! Enjoy!

 

[Refueler]

Looks a fun boat! Enjoy!

Certainly a different boat to my other 25ft Motor Sailer .... Sunrider25.

 

[penfold]

Gloss paint over moulded GRP tread will be an icerink in the wet, if you don't paint it at least put some strips of adhesive backed non-slip on.

 

[Neeves]

Personally I would not get excited about your self tacking jib. By the time you add the space taken up by the track and the block the foot of the sail is very short and you will only use the sail in adverse conditions, when you might have been wiser to stay at anchor. If it has been cut full, it will be worse. If it is flat, good for sailing hard to windward in 25 knots.

We had the same, or similar, set up as your first illustration. Sheet secured at bow, then to a block with car on the track, back to bow, across bow (recall we have a cat) to a turning block and then down the sidedeck to a clutch, another turning block and back to a cockpit winch.

The power in light winds was appalling, our sail was cut flat, and in the end we added an extra deck winch, 2 tracks and bought a 150% overlapping headsail on the furler.

In defence of the jib, its really a No 4, we do use it when we beat to windward with winds over 20 knots and 3 reefs in the main - but only do so in the extreme as we so seldom need to sail to windward in winds greater than 15 knots. For us its a bit of a faff as both sails use the same furler and we need to remove one to set the other. Our self tacker being flat and small is a waste of time off the wind.

I'd invest your time and money into investigating a larger head sail, which might mean (as with us) you will need new tracks and another winch. But being based in the Baltic maybe with smaller seas you will find the existing headsail of value in strong winds. We consider our self tacker as offering a sail before we need to set a storm jib (which is carried by us on an inner forestay on a Highfield lever (and uses the same sheet as the self tacker).

Good luck

Jonathan

 

[Refueler]

Gloss paint over moulded GRP tread will be an icerink in the wet, if you don't paint it at least put some strips of adhesive backed non-slip on.

We had plenty water over deck during delivery and had no problem ...

I agree that the paint used is not best - but its not as bad as you think.

There's no way to add any sel;f-adhesive strips ... the deck is stipuled - I mean seriously stipuled ... in fact is probably reason he didn't add the grit ...

The grit would have likely started to fill the low part - reducing the sipules ..

 

[Refueler]

Personally I would not get excited about your self tacking jib. By the time you add the space taken up by the track and the block the foot of the sail is very short and you will only use the sail in adverse conditions, when you might have been wiser to stay at anchor. If it has been cut full, it will be worse. If it is flat, good for sailing hard to windward in 25 knots.

We had the same, or similar, set up as your first illustration. Sheet secured at bow, then to a block with car on the track, back to bow, across bow (recall we have a cat) to a turning block and then down the sidedeck to a clutch, another turning block and back to a cockpit winch.

The power in light winds was appalling, our sail was cut flat, and in the end we added an extra deck winch, 2 tracks and bought a 150% overlapping headsail on the furler.

In defence of the jib, its really a No 4, we do use it when we beat to windward with winds over 20 knots and 3 reefs in the main - but only do so in the extreme as we so seldom need to sail to windward in winds greater than 15 knots. For us its a bit of a faff as both sails use the same furler and we need to remove one to set the other. Our self tacker being flat and small is a waste of time off the wind.

I'd invest your time and money into investigating a larger head sail, which might mean (as with us) you will need new tracks and another winch. But being based in the Baltic maybe with smaller seas you will find the existing headsail of value in strong winds. We consider our self tacker as offering a sail before we need to set a storm jib (which is carried by us on an inner forestay on a Highfield lever (and uses the same sheet as the self tacker).

Good luck

Jonathan

The ST jib is for cruising - to allow for 'relaxed' sailing with company. I have full gennys for serious sailing ... and intended regatta's.

The setup as I have worked out is to use the existing port hand genny sheet run through the blocks .... an easy enough job.

 

[Refueler]

Really appreciated all replies ... all gone into the 'pot' --- stirred --- and out came possible setup.

Keep it all coming ... !!

 

[Daydream believer]

The pullies on each end of the track could be there for light lines led aft to bring the clew in to the C/L in light airs to aid pointing ability.if the boat is slow to tack they may be there to hold the jib for a second so it backs to get the bow round
for heaving too I have a clip on a 150mm line each end that I can clip the car to.. however, my boat does not heave to so I tend to just use them to stop the car crashing from side to side when running down wind.

 

[Daydream believer]

Quite a read ... but I'm with you ....

Not for a jib boom at this stage ... but maybe later.

My thoughts are to have a short foot jib ... which is what previous guy was trying to achieve ... as he said - he was cutting the original sail to fit - then intended to have one made ...

It will be a 'blade sail' .... old term for a very tall but narrow footed sail.

A boom is not a good idea. The Hoyte boom is the nearest solution you will find because it has to clear the rail . Not just at the clew end but at the front as the boom goes out.
so the boom has to sit on a pedestal at the mast end. It cannot fit to the fore stay as it would damage the foil
can I suggest that you have a look at my original “up the mast” solution. Do you have a spinnaker pole topping lift that can double up.
properly set up the sail can almost fill the fore triangle- mine does
as for Neeves comments about his ST he has to bear in mind that he has a cat I would further suggest ( with respect) that he needs a decent sail &not a lorry tarp

 

[Refueler]

Today - I remembered to measure the tack to car distance.

From the Ramshorn tack below the furler - to the car on the track - its 3.64m

No way can the Ramshorn be used obviously as it sits right under the furler (Furlex 2000). The ST would be hoisted via the furler ....

So deduction of fittings etc. - looking at 3m foot length.

Because I am considering this purely as a relaxed cruising sail setup ... it may be possible to only part unfurl genny and use the ST facility .... before people stamp their feet and shout 'idiot' .... why not ? Relaxed feet up sailing ? I am not concerned about sail shape ....
Saves changing sail on the furler ... just change sheeting to use full genny ....

 

[Refueler]

The pullies on each end of the track could be there for light lines led aft to bring the clew in to the C/L in light airs to aid pointing ability.if the boat is slow to tack they may be there to hold the jib for a second so it backs to get the bow round
for heaving too I have a clip on a 150mm line each end that I can clip the car to.. however, my boat does not heave to so I tend to just use them to stop the car crashing from side to side when running down wind.

According to Selden and other sites - they draw the sail in and help flatten it ....

 

[Refueler]

A boom is not a good idea. The Hoyte boom is the nearest solution you will find because it has to clear the rail . Not just at the clew end but at the front as the boom goes out.
so the boom has to sit on a pedestal at the mast end. It cannot fit to the fore stay as it would damage the foil
can I suggest that you have a look at my original “up the mast” solution. Do you have a spinnaker pole topping lift that can double up.
properly set up the sail can almost fill the fore triangle- mine does
as for Neeves comments about his ST he has to bear in mind that he has a cat I would further suggest ( with respect) that he needs a decent sail &not a lorry tarp

I am trying to visualise your boom comment .....

If I was to use a jib boom - I'm not actually - but lets say I was to.

The boom would be clipped to the Ramshorn under the furler and jib loose footed to the clew ... the boom would clip to the sheet attached at clew ...

as shown by illustrations earlier ....

The sail is able to be slacked off and boom can stay inside guard lines ... as its primary function is to keep clew from folding back on itself ..

And where is this Lorry Tarp from ????

 

[ashtead]

I’m not certain I would invest in a Hoyte boom . Just get down to your marina and look at how it works on a Hanse or a Moody-ours is simple to use ,unfurling off the furlex furler drum pulling the line in cockpit to unfurl . It is small but a larger headsail and a cruising chute gives up scaling in sail area if needed. Attached might help re set up

 

[greeny]

Today - I remembered to measure the tack to car distance.

From the Ramshorn tack below the furler - to the car on the track - its 3.64m

No way can the Ramshorn be used obviously as it sits right under the furler (Furlex 2000). The ST would be hoisted via the furler ....

So deduction of fittings etc. - looking at 3m foot length.

Because I am considering this purely as a relaxed cruising sail setup ... it may be possible to only part unfurl genny and use the ST facility .... before people stamp their feet and shout 'idiot' .... why not ? Relaxed feet up sailing ? I am not concerned about sail shape ....
Saves changing sail on the furler ... just change sheeting to use full genny ....

You could always get a few foam strips added to the luff to help flatten the sail as its furled to the self tacking position.

 

[davidaprice]

On our Maxi 999 the ST jib's sheet goes from the clew to the block sliding on the ST traveller, then forward to a block behind the forestay, then back under the ST traveller to the outermost sheave on the starboard deck organizer (the one in your first picture between the grab rail and the stainless air vent) then back to one of the clutches in front of the cabin top winch. This works well but does make it difficult to open the anchor box, not really a problem on a Baltic boat as we hardly ever anchor from the bow (the anchor locker contains just the gas bottles and the bow mooring lines).

My wife in particular likes the ST jib as it lets her single-hand the boat and make effortless tacks. Since our ST traveller is not as wide as yours it also means that the ST jib sheets much closer to the centre-line than the genoa, improving pointing upwind. Our ST jib has three leech battens parallel to the forestay (so they furl) giving a bit of roach and making its shape rather good. But downwind it's a real dog (small, terrible sheeting angle) and you're always wishing you had the genoa on.