Self Tacking headsails .... setup

[Refueler]

A number of boats over the years have had self tacking headsails ..... doesn't seem so often now.

I am interested in photos / descriptions of setups on anyones boats that has such.

The 38 I bought - has the self tacking traveller and car fitted - but seller removed the rest of setup. He had been cutting and playing with one of the foresails to make it fit - but never completed the job.

The 38 has both Self Tacker and conventional .... would be interesting to complete the self tacking arrangement.

 

[Daydream believer]

I would take you to task on your comment about STJibs being less prevalent now. i suspect that a trawl through the data would find that several big name manufacturers offer them. Hanse being the most obvious.
I love my ST although some complain of loss of speed in light airs upwind it makes up for it in pointing ability, it is a sail that I rarely have ever in 20 years had to use part furled
so how is it set up?
I have 2:1 to the clew board/car then the sheet goes up the mast to a point just below my steaming light between my 2spreaders. Down inside the mast & out the bottom & back to the cockpit
initial twist is found by where the sheet pulley i( remember 2-1)s attached to the 4hole clew board on the jib
the reason for the 2:1 is to take the weight off the sheave in the upper mast fitting
off the wind I have a fitting on each rail to these I have a pulley which takes a downhaul line lead back to the cockpit, with this I can just pull down on the leech
i actually use my cruising chute down haul line as that is long because I drop my chute in the cockpit, so I just bring it back to the fitting on the rail, clip on a eye to the rail & take the end of the line up to the leech
it is not a problem tacking because if going upwind in a channel,say, one would not be using it anyway
sorry no photos doing this on iPad in Ostend harbour

 

[Daydream believer]

As a further point. I have seen drawings of the sheet NOT going up the mast but forward to a point just under the furler then back to the cockpit via various blocks. This does restrict your mistress from sunbathing on the deck though, would not work with an inner stay either,

 

[Refueler]

I said less prevalent - because I had not seen one for many years ... last one I saw was back in the early 90's on a Parker.

Why do I ask for setups ?

DB's reply illustrates well why ....

The 38 I have .....

There is the traveller and car with single sheave block.
Centreline ahead of the traveller on deck - a small fixed block for light 4mm line. Just ahead of that is an eye fitting with nothing attached. I would not like to put too much weight on that eye.
Ends of traveller have small blocks fitted - plus loose blocks that can rise up the supporting frame each side.
There are no deck organisers to lead anything aft .... so I wonder if he used one of the normal genny sheets just re-routed ...

I will see about photos if it doesn't rain today !!

 

[Ilduceglider]

Daydream Believer, we had the first setup you described, up and down the mast but it had lots of friction and was much improved by a block of the jib tack and running the sheet down the side deck. You could run it through furling type pulleys at the stauntion bases.
Cheers

 

[Daydream believer]

Daydream Believer, we had the first setup you described, up and down the mast but it had lots of friction and was much improved by a block of the jib tack and running the sheet down the side deck. You could run it through furling type pulleys at the stauntion bases.
Cheers

So how does that work when you tack?
the weight that I apply to my laminate sail in F7 would soon rip those fittings out.

 

[Daydream believer]

There is the traveller and car with single sheave block.
Centreline ahead of the traveller on deck - a small fixed block for light 4mm line. Just ahead of that is an eye fitting with nothing attached. I would not like to put too much weight on that eye.
Ends of traveller have small blocks fitted - plus loose blocks that can rise up the supporting frame each side.
There are no deck organisers to lead anything aft .... so I wonder if he used one of the normal genny sheets just re-routed ...

I will see about photos if it doesn't rain today !!

Refueler how long have you been posting on this forum.
how many times have seen a newbie ask a question & have to have the full details dragged out of him
yet here you are a seasoned veteran & you have done exactly the same thing.posted a question & only given us half the details straight off.
you deserve a jolly good forum ticking off

 

[Refueler]

The first with fwd led sheet is what I used to see and have used .... the second I only saw once or twice ... but appears to be what previous owner may have been playing with.

The 3rd with jib boom ... cannot really see me doing that ...

 

[Refueler]

Forgive me DB ... but I thought I worded ok in 1st post - I'm looking for setups that I could possibly modify or adapt my setup to use ... so tried to not influence design by giving the 38's items.

Your 'up mast' reply - I admit I have never seen before ... so prompted me to pass the 38's setup.

But I am still looking to setup as simple as possible.

I've just remembered - there is a block attached to the rear of forestay base .... which I assumed he used for the Gennaker .... but may actually be dual purpose ... self tacker or Gennaker ...

The one bit that I will need to sort later - once I get rig decided ... a replacement self tacking jib ... I think he ruined the original ....

Reminds me - must get spare sails of the boat and open up to see reality of them ...

 

[Refueler]

Daydream Believer, we had the first setup you described, up and down the mast but it had lots of friction and was much improved by a block of the jib tack and running the sheet down the side deck. You could run it through furling type pulleys at the stauntion bases.
Cheers

I have an idea that on thinking - it may have been one of the options previous owner used .... there are decent blocks attached to the traveller vertical legs that are large enough for the sheet. This then leads nice back to normal sheet winch.

 

[Pye_End]

The first with fwd led sheet is what I used to see and have used .... the second I only saw once or twice ... but appears to be what previous owner may have been playing with.

The 3rd with jib boom ... cannot really see me doing that ...

Got the third one of these, but as a hanked on staysail. Boom sits on the stay, and has 2 blocks for sheet. Works well as it is largely used when not going downwind. Slab reefed, so good shape when the wind pipes up. Genoa on roller furling, so covers all the bases. Others in the class have set same up for roller furling, but not sure how the lines have been altered.

 

[B27]

Have a look at some high performance dinghies like Int 14, RS800, Int Canoe even.
Cherub maybe?
Many of these have a track for a self tacking jib and the sheet running forwards.
But the subtle difference may be that the sheet is often a 3:1 or so tackle between the track car and the jib.
I think this may mean there is less sheet tension pulling the car inwards, allowing the forward block to not necessarily at the centre ofthe track's curve.
I

 

[Refueler]

OK ... photos time ...

track overall :

Foredeck block :

Small deck block and eye :

Block on mounting leg - obviously later 'bodge' :

Small block on traveller to port :

Another small block on stay base aft of stbd end of traveller - likely nothing to do with the self tacker :

As can be seen in stenhead ... there is provision for varied setups ... Ramshorn, wire pendant tack ... as well as the furler.

 

[[193211]]

I would take you to task on your comment about STJibs being less prevalent now. i suspect that a trawl through the data would find that several big name manufacturers offer them. Hanse being the most obvious.
I love my ST although some complain of loss of speed in light airs upwind it makes up for it in pointing ability, it is a sail that I rarely have ever in 20 years had to use part furled
so how is it set up?
I have 2:1 to the clew board/car then the sheet goes up the mast to a point just below my steaming light between my 2spreaders. Down inside the mast & out the bottom & back to the cockpit
initial twist is found by where the sheet pulley i( remember 2-1)s attached to the 4hole clew board on the jib
the reason for the 2:1 is to take the weight off the sheave in the upper mast fitting
off the wind I have a fitting on each rail to these I have a pulley which takes a downhaul line lead back to the cockpit, with this I can just pull down on the leech
i actually use my cruising chute down haul line as that is long because I drop my chute in the cockpit, so I just bring it back to the fitting on the rail, clip on a eye to the rail & take the end of the line up to the leech
it is not a problem tacking because if going upwind in a channel,say, one would not be using it anyway
sorry no photos doing this on iPad in Ostend harbour

This is the same setup found British Hunters, late ‘80s onwards. A fairlead below the upper mast sheeve prevents side loading and helps with friction.

The ST is one of my favourite aspects of the boat. Can tack without putting down my brew.

 

[Kelpie]

I had the middle setup. Fixed at one end of traveller, with two blocks on the car, one at the clew, and one at the other end of the traveller.
When we bought the boat it had only just been fitted, with the track completely straight and level. Unless you managed to tack at just the right speed, it would always hang up about three quarters of the way across. The middle of the track needs to be further below and/or aft of the ends, otherwise the sail will be fighting the increased tension in the sheet and will want to stay in the middle.
Fortunately on my boat the middle of the track had been installed on top of some grp plinth which were the remnants of a sliding fore hatch. This meant I could grind these down and introduce a curve to the track, and after that it self tacked correctly.

 

[Refueler]

I have been on board as seen by the photos and sat contemplating what previous owner was doing .....

It would appear that having that fixed block at stem - the sheet was led forward ... then back through that 'bodged' block to the genny car near cockpit. Simple and effective.
The small blocks I assume may have been used to apply downhaul to clew when hard sheeted in - to flatten sail. I can see on other use for them. But I assume that a couple of blocks are missing ... if that's ....

I have an old genny sheet from my other boat which is more than long enough .... so will reave it another day and see what happens. Unfortunately - the original ST jib is not on the boat and the genny previous guy cut and taped is a mess ... shame as it must have been a good laminate sail before he got hands on it.

Looks like an order later to ExchangeSails UK again ...

 

[Refueler]

I had the middle setup. Fixed at one end of traveller, with two blocks on the car, one at the clew, and one at the other end of the traveller.
When we bought the boat it had only just been fitted, with the track completely straight and level. Unless you managed to tack at just the right speed, it would always hang up about three quarters of the way across. The middle of the track needs to be further below and/or aft of the ends, otherwise the sail will be fighting the increased tension in the sheet and will want to stay in the middle.
Fortunately on my boat the middle of the track had been installed on top of some grp plinth which were the remnants of a sliding fore hatch. This meant I could grind these down and introduce a curve to the track, and after that it self tacked correctly.

Yep - all data I read and from what I used / saw many years ago - the track has to be part of the circumference of circle whose centre is the forestay deck fitting.

 

[B27]

Yep - all data I read and from what I used / saw many years ago - the track has to be part of the circumference of circle whose centre is the forestay deck fitting.

I don't think that's always true.
The tension on the sheet pulls the sail in and hence the car out.
So long as the lead forwards is pulling the car in less than he sail is pulling the car out, then it's a happy system.
Putting a purchase between car and sail can change that balance.
AIUI, some boats work with a straight track.
I think there have even been one or two boats with self tacking jibs with a little overlap, the track curving forwards around the mast?

There may be some sublties making it work for varying amounts of leach tension/twist in the jib. Cranking on a lot of leach tension might pull the car in on a system that works fine with a more open leach. Also on a cruising yacht, you need it to work cracked off for a close reach.

The thing you may miss is being able to easily back the jib!

 

[penfold]

No idea what the extra blocks are for but the original installation appears to be of the first set-up of the three.

 

[Kelpie]

I don't think that's always true.
The tension on the sheet pulls the sail in and hence the car out.
So long as the lead forwards is pulling the car in less than he sail is pulling the car out, then it's a happy system.
Putting a purchase between car and sail can change that balance.
AIUI, some boats work with a straight track.
I think there have even been one or two boats with self tacking jibs with a little overlap, the track curving forwards around the mast?

There may be some sublties making it work for varying amounts of leach tension/twist in the jib. Cranking on a lot of leach tension might pull the car in on a system that works fine with a more open leach. Also on a cruising yacht, you need it to work cracked off for a close reach.

The thing you may miss is being able to easily back the jib!

Before I fixed my straight and level track, I had a bit of line running from the cockpit to the car, one on either side. Ostensibly it was there so that I could give a tug on it to make sure the car went right across, but a couple of times I made it fast in order to heave to.
Bit of a faff, but no grinding of winches involved.