Seems to be legal but I feel cheated

[captainhaddock]

Lack of decency by vendor

Likewise Jonic I can't grasp how some people think it's ethical to do what the seller did. Legal for sure, but decency requires more than legality.

+1

When I sold my boat, I left all sail sheets on board and the chartplotter charts. The sheets weren't mentioned in the inventory nor were the chart plotter charts, but it seemed logical and decent to leave them all on board - the genoa wouldn't be much use without the sheets nor would the chart plotter be much use without charts. It makes me wonder just how detailed are the inventories of brokers like Jonic?

 

[jonic]

+1

When I sold my boat, I left all sail sheets on board and the chartplotter charts. The sheets weren't mentioned in the inventory nor were the chart plotter charts, but it seemed logical and decent to leave them all on board - the genoa wouldn't be much use without the sheets nor would the chart plotter be much use without charts. It makes me wonder just how detailed are the inventories of brokers like Jonic?

Right I am going to add here: I am nothing to do whatsoever with the op's purchase. I have joined this thread only to help clarify the likely legal and contractual position the OP finds himself in.

Without knowing the facts it is likely he has no claim on the charts but does have a claim on the sheets.

Seeing as you now ask about my inventories please see here see here and note the mention of charts.


I have never ever had clients with an inventory dispute in the real world, but I guess the forum is a world unto it's self!

 

[A1Sailor]

The bit at the bottom is interesting:

The Company normally acts as broker for the vendor who unless otherwise stated is not selling in the course of business. Whilst every care has been taken in the preparation of these particulars, the correctness is not guaranteed and they are intended as a guide only and do not constitute a part of any contract.

I'll trouser my gas bottle next time!

 

[charles_reed]

Interesting to read the thread.

Wot a lot of confusion!!

Sheets belong to boat, charts (including chart-chip) belong to ex-owner. Can't understand what the furore is about - as John R says the forum is a funny place.

 

[NormanS]

seems to me like a big fuss over very little. When I bought my last boat, there was an inventory, and there were a few things missing, but equally, there were a few things extra. They were probably of the order of 0.2% of the purchase price. Life's too short.......

 

[Koeketiene]

seems to me like a big fuss over very little. When I bought my last boat, there was an inventory, and there were a few things missing, but equally, there were a few things extra. They were probably of the order of 0.2% of the purchase price. Life's too short.......

+1
9 pages over a 200 quid item - to be seen in the context of a boat puchase of several thousands

 

[jac]

Moral of this story is don't demo the boat at all.

Someone will assume that just because there was someone there to start the engine, grind the winch, press the buttons on the electronics that the crew was part of the boat.

John, obviously this doesn't apply to me!!!!

 

[jonic]

Moral of this story is don't demo the boat at all.

Someone will assume that just because there was someone there to start the engine, grind the winch, press the buttons on the electronics that the crew was part of the boat.

John, obviously this doesn't apply to me!!!!

Hi Jac

I thought you might pop in

Your's is very different and will be managed accordingly- you'll probably end up with more stuff! (Like Maxi Roach sails )

 

[jonic]

seems to me like a big fuss over very little. When I bought my last boat, there was an inventory, and there were a few things missing, but equally, there were a few things extra. They were probably of the order of 0.2% of the purchase price. Life's too short.......

To be fair to the OP it's not really him, he just asked a question as he doesn't know the form.

 

[jonic]

The bit at the bottom is interesting:


I'll trouser my gas bottle next time!

ahh but the interesting thing there is they don't form part of a contract at the advertising stage but they become contractual after the signing of the agreement if they have been added to the schedule and signed off by both parties.

So you'll have to give yer gas bottle back

Fortunately in the day to day common sense usually prevails


...and you selectively left out the next sentence "A prospective buyer is strongly advised to check these particulars"

 

[A1Sailor]

Moral of this story is don't demo the boat at all.

Someone will assume that just because there was someone there to start the engine, grind the winch, press the buttons on the electronics that the crew was part of the boat.

Now you are just being silly... Unless, of course, you mean it?

 

[dslittle]

To be fair to the OP it's not really him, he just asked a question as he doesn't know the form.

Actually to my eyes he 'does know the form' as he stated legal v moral.

I have bought and sold boats. Demonstrating a chartplotter using a chip, I would/have left it as part of the sale. Maybe I am just a bit old fashioned like that...

 

[jonic]

Demonstrating a chartplotter using a chip, I would/have left it as part of the sale. Maybe I am just a bit old fashioned like that...

That's right. It's your choice. You can choose to leave them or choose to keep them. You paid for them. They are yours.

I am leaving the debate now.

The sheets are the real issue but the fixation with the charts is too much for me now.

Enjoy all.

 

[Portofino]

Having just acquired a new boat (a used one)


The genoa sheets are not there either (and some other stuff seems to be no longer there as well - but I digress) but in this case the broker says they (the genoa sheets) should be there as you can't use the boat without them, even if they're not listed specifically on the inventory. Doesn't feel wholly consistent to me.

Moral of this tale -seems to be get a good/ accurate inventory ( brokers job?) + or minus " chip"
The buyer uses " due dilligance " to establish what is in the sale .
Then once price agreed or at some stage - all 3 parties initial it .,or at least the seller somehow acknowledges exactly what is for sale.
Recognising the fact when viewing -the boat may be in use - full of " personal effects" due to the long gestation period of completing.
Asking the broker to really work - how,s about he withholds x% until the buyer signs off the inventory - that was agreed?
So in this case if the chip is off the list - fine but the sheets/ cars were on then the broker uses the x % to replace . In reality both these misunderstandings would not have occurred or if so broker fixes with the x%

 

[haydude]

To the OP: the broker's view is perfectly consistent. Anything that is essential to boat handling or fixed to the boat should be included, everything else is expected to be there only if listed in the inventory. If the chartplotter is listed, you cannot expect that also the chip is included unless listed too, because when you buy a new chartplotter the chart chip is NOT included.

If you have agreed a price lower then the asking price, you should have checked and clarified.

As a seller, I am happy to include everything extra at the asking price, but if the price is lowered, all the extras become optionals.

 

[haydude]

The chart card disables the plotter and he was shown the boat with the plotter working. The genoa sheets are outrageous, the card would have me fuming as well and I would demand it's return or the small claims court; the small claims court would take a dim view of the seller disabling a key navigation tool.

So when you buy a new plotter and do not find the chart of your area in the box do you sue the shop that sold it to you? This is arrogant madness.

 

[Otter]

This is arrogant madness.

Wow - "Arrogant madness" what with your post and Jonic's 23 posts (all saying how silly it is to post on this thread at all) this has really touched some raw nerves! So that calm and sanity can return I humbly change my mind, you are 100% right and the seller was legally and morally justified in removing the chart cartridge which after all is worth very little.

 

[jonic]

Kipper it's not silly.

The OP asked a question and he got varying answers.

I have answered from the likely legal point of view.

Charts no.

Sheets yes.


You and a few others have mentioned the small claims court for the charts. If the OP follows your suggestion he will lose and forefit his costs.

That would be silly.

Morally we don't know.

We don't know what was agreed.

He says he didn't check if the sheets were ever there in the first place, he says they never spoke about the charts.

We don't know if he hammered the price down and the seller thought he was morally wrong to do that. (So kept his stuff he may otherwise have left behind.)

We don't even know if there were any sheets, although a survey should have pointed that out if they were missing.


My feeling is still the same. The charts are probably an incorrect assumption on the part of the buyer rather than any sneakiness from the seller, (because it is usual for them not to be included unless on the inventory) and missing sheets are unusual to say the least and the OP should investigate that further.

It would still be useful to know if the OP (inadvertently) upset the seller regarding the price.

Off to Chichester now to discuss an inventory of all things!

 

[doug748]

I disagree. Previous owner demonstrated it with a chip - and should have made it clear that it wasn't included in the sale.

Just so bloke was a gutless git..........unless, just maybe, he had been turned over/wound up by the OP and I guess we will never know that. Maybe we can all be gits when the red mist comes down.

 

[Talulah]

Butting in with my tuppence worth.
Someone who is buying a boat especially for the first time is all flumaxed and disorientated with everything that is going on. At the time of a demo they are probably tired having not slept the night before, excited because they may be buying the boat etc etc. To a large part they rely on the good will of the seller and broker to 'hand hold' them through some of the process.
This is where assumptions are made. There are the explicit items but also the implicit items. It is these implicit items that create all the fuss because implicit takes on a different meaning to each party.
I am glad that the person who sold me the Najad was a genuine person of high morals because it would be so easy not to ask all the right questions. This is where it's worth taking along colleagues/friends etc during the deal making process especially if they are boaty themselves.