Seems to be legal but I feel cheated

The costs of these items will soon be lost and forgotten in the general commissioning / maintenance budget once you find the broken / worn stuff and start replacing it.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
I would demand it's return or the small claims court
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If I was the seller I would tell you to bugger off, it's common practice not to include the card as plenty of posts here show, it was not listed in my inventory, and at no point did I tell you it was included. If you persisted in taking it to court I would politely ask Jonic (for a small fee) to write me an affidavit as a professional yacht broker saying that the card is not usually regarded as a part of the yacht's equipment and that it would usually be excluded or listed specifically in the inventory. I would also produce my inventory in which the card would be conspicuous by its absence, and state under oath that you did not ask whether it was included and I did not tell you it was, a statement which I assume would not be disputed.

There's always an element of uncertainty in going to court, but I really can't see what else it could do in this hypothetical case except also tell you to bugger off :)

Pete
 
prv said:
If I was the seller I would tell you to bugger off, it's common practice not to include the card as plenty of posts here show, it was not listed in my inventory, and at no point did I tell you it was included. If you persisted in taking it to court I would politely ask Jonic (for a small fee) to write me an affidavit as a professional yacht broker saying that the card is not usually regarded as a part of the yacht's equipment and that it would usually be excluded or listed specifically in the inventory. I would also produce my inventory in which the card would be conspicuous by its absence, and state under oath that you did not ask whether it was included and I did not tell you it was, a statement which I assume would not be disputed.

There's always an element of uncertainty in going to court, but I really can't see what else it could do in this hypothetical case except also tell you to bugger off :)

Pete
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Pete is right.


To the OP, whatever you do do not listen to those on here suggesting you go to court over the chart card (gosh I really am losing the will to live now)

One expert witness, a copy of the sale and purchase agreement and a copy of the inventory would take about 2 mins to have it thrown straight out. Do not do it.


But do ask for the genoa sheets.

if you like, PM/email me a copy of your sale and purchase contract and I will have a look at it for you and tell you where you stand.

Let me know who the broker is and I'll see if I can have a word too.



However one or two on here have brought up the subject of goodwill. Did you pay the advertised price (or close to it - say within 2-5%)


If not, or there were last minute negotiations which left the seller well out of pocket, that may explain what is going on here - from a moral standpoint.
 
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Could I also take umbridge with those claiming that removing the charting software DISABLES a plotter or that it's not working/defunct/unusable, etc. It most certainly does not disable it and the plotter is working fine without it in.....the plotter will continue to function, it will plot your location on it's worldwide background map (non detailed, but it will show your location, and give you GPS data) - The plotter continues to function as it was designed to, with or without the chart chip.

The chart chip just unlocks the full potential of the plotter, it's software and I completely agree with those that say if it's not specified as part of the sale, it's not part of the sale! (If I bought an Xbox and someone used a game to show me it works, I wouldn't immediately assume I was getting the game!)
 
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macd said:
I'm pretty sure taking light bulbs is actually illegal.

As to your boat, sympathies. The previous owner sounds a bit of a tu*d. Hard to suggest anything practical you might do, except put it behind you and enjoy your new boat.
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When we viewed our current house before purchase, all the rooms had light fittings (and bulbs!) and floor coverings (rugs) and the owner proudly showed us her washer/drier - haven't a clue why. When we moved in one of the light fittings had been removed (the wire was sticking through the ceiling), all the rugs had gone, and the washer/drier was now a cheap washing machine. We subsequently replaced it. Previous owners had also left the remains of their evening meal for us to clear up - lovely.
Like you we felt cheated, and although we wouldn't have wanted the rugs we were pretty pi**ed off. We sought the advice of our solicitor, who raised it with theirs, and got an apology. He would have happily raised an action on our behalf - at cost! We decided simply to "forget about it"; although I haven't...
The phrase "sold as seen" springs to mind. I should have taken some pics - particularly of the tumble drier...
 
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Is this the world we live in - someone shows you round their boat to sell it to you, they show you the plotter and card working just fine, when they hear you want to buy the boat they trouser the chart card which will cost about £200 to replace and folk say that's fine. It was a mean and sneaky thing to do by the seller and I'm kind of surprised at people saying it's OK. The plotter now works much like a used GPS costing £50 but whatever, according to some folk it's all fair in love, war and boat selling.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
Is this the world we live in - someone shows you round their boat to sell it to you, they show you the plotter and card working just fine, when they hear you want to buy the boat they trouser the chart card which will cost about £200 to replace and folk say that's fine. It was a mean and sneaky thing to do by the seller and I'm kind of surprised at people saying it's OK. The plotter now works much like a used GPS costing £50 but whatever, according to some folk it's all fair in love, war and boat selling.
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Kipper, I think you are being a bit unfair in that statement, and it is innacurate - the plotter works like a plotter costing what a raymarine wide chartplotter costs with or without the chip (A raymarine wide plotter costs a sight more than £50!!!) If you buy a raymarine chartplotter *NEW* you don't get a Navionics chip with it, you get the background chart..the plotter still costs the top hundreds even thousands, you have to fork out for a Navionics chart in addition to the plotter new. (also a quick ebay search of completed listings shows you can pick up a used 28G card for around the £60 mark)
 
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FishyInverness said:
Kipper, I think you are being a bit unfair in that statement, and it is innacurate - the plotter works like a plotter costing what a raymarine wide chartplotter costs with or without the chip (A raymarine wide plotter costs a sight more than £50!!!) If you buy a raymarine chartplotter *NEW* you don't get a Navionics chip with it, you get the background chart..the plotter still costs the top hundreds even thousands, you have to fork out for a Navionics chart in addition to the plotter new. (also a quick ebay search of completed listings shows you can pick up a used 28G card for around the £60 mark)
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I disagree. Previous owner demonstrated it with a chip - and should have made it clear that it wasn't included in the sale.
 
A1Sailor said:
I disagree. Previous owner demonstrated it with a chip - and should have made it clear that it wasn't included in the sale.
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Indeed - which makes it even cheaper and meaner to have popped it in his pocket. If the buyer had asked "is everything on the boat included in the sale?" and got the answer "yes" and then spotted the guy's watch by the bed and pocketed that - it would be legal but he'd be just as mean spirited as this seller was.
 
From the OP : "When the owner showed me round the boat, the wide screen Raymarine GPS system had a Navionics chart chip in it. I was given a quick demo.

Now, I find that there is no chart chip and when I took this up with the broker, he told me that as it was not on the inventory specifically,"

How can anyone argue with "not being on the inventory" as a clear indication that something isn't included in the sale?!

If I answered a Gumtree ad for a Games Console (to go back to my earlier analogy) that said "Xbox360 for sale, includes controllers, leads and unit, can be shown working" and I went to visit the seller and he put his copy of "Call of Duty" into the Xbox and showed me it working before I bought it....I most certainly wouldn't then call him a fraud for taking HIS game back once I purchased what was labelled on the advert.
 
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I really can't understand how some people just can't grasp this and are putting a spin of "trousering" and dishonesty on it.

I have professionally sold millions of pounds worth of boats.

We use professional legal contracts and where required add schedules and inventories.

They are there to protect not only the buyer but the seller too.

And from reading this thread I can see why we must continue to use them.

NEVER have we ever assumed the seller's personal charts, whether electronic or paper are automatically included unless expressly stated on the inventory.

They are his charts.

If he wants to sell them. Great.

If not. Then that's great too.

A new expensive Raymarine plotter in a chandlery will not come with extra charts over and above the pre-loaded world map, does that turn it into a £50 GPS too? Of course not. It's still an £1100 Raymarine Plotter with charts (of the buyers choice) sold separately. And it will be demoed in the shop with a chart chip too, because you can't demo it without one.


The thing that is not right is the sheets. But everyone is fixated on a b**dy chart that is not on the sales inventory!

I still want to know if the OP "trousered" some of the asking price and if it was more than a £200 quid chart :p
 
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A1Sailor said:
That's what brokers are for - bringing sellers and buyers together for an honest deal!
I'll make sure that next time I sell, I trouser the gas bottle...
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Some thieving eejit replaced my half full gas bottle with an empty one when Camelia was moved! Replaced a manky old bottle with a not so manky one and did not think I would notice!
 
Likewise Jonic I can't grasp how some people think it's ethical to do what the seller did. Legal for sure, but decency requires more than legality.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
Likewise Jonic I can't grasp how some people think it's ethical to do what the seller did. Legal for sure, but decency requires more than legality.
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Kipper, the seller did not say they were included.

The inventory does not include them either.

Normal day to day practice is they are not included.

The buyer wrongly assumed they were included.

He says he didn't ask the seller or check with the seller.

Why do you you think it's unethical?

What is unethical are the missing sheets.
 
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