Secondhand paper charts

[Gary Fox]

I demur. It's always possible to confect a scenario where a variety of electrical systems fail but most are improbable in the extreme given multiple backup systems which can be had for less money and offer greater versatility. Like Trump, paper charts have had their day but many adherents don't yet recognise that fact.
Out of interest, does anyone know if commercial airlines carry paper backups for navigation?

Now I've heard it all..comparing paper charts to Donald Trump

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I demur. It's always possible to confect a scenario where a variety of electrical systems fail but most are improbable in the extreme given multiple backup systems which can be had for less money and offer greater versatility. Like Trump, paper charts have had their day but many adherents don't yet recognise that fact.
Out of interest, does anyone know if commercial airlines carry paper backups for navigation?

I don't know about airlines, but I do know that pilots operating in the Antarctic preferred to have specially produced maps on paper, even though we had also provided map data for their GPS systems. Others have said that commercial long-haul pilots use purely electronic sources these days, but I'm not completely assured of that - I know that airport approach diagrams (a form of chart) are required in paper form.

Basically, it isn't a choice - it's not either/or, it's both/and! Paper and electronics do different jobs, and BOTH are valuable. Paper charts are invaluable to provide an overview of an area, for planning and for discussion of alternatives. Chart-plotters are ideal for integration with boat's systems, and for moment-to-moment pilotage.

I produced BOTH electronic and paper products, and BOTH were in demand for different purposes. Whenever discussions turned that way (it would have been much cheaper to only produce electronic products), all parties involved (management, we, the mapping section, the users and the customers) agreed that BOTH were required and would continue to be so.

 

[NorthRising]

I can't understand why, now that we are well into the 21st century, that people opt to use 19th century technology. Especially when considering using 2nd hand charts and all the faff involved in updating them!
A tablet or even a phone with GPS, a nav app and VMH or the like charts plus a built in USB charge socket and you are ready to go.
Is it because people are technophobes, or do they think that GPS will suddenly fail? If it did, the ramifications would be far more than a yachty having to rely on DR!
From previous threads, I know that there are many who would disagree ☺

For some of us on small boats without an charging appliances an issue.

 

[dansaskip]

Only one backup GPS, a minimum if you're not versed in astro nav on an ocean passage. These days with GPS on phone, tablet et al and one of them stored in a tin box you would be hard pressed not to know your position. As for charts, as I've shown above, it's fairly easy to knock up a passage chart on a sheet of A4 graph paper, not forgetting that a phone or tablet can be a dormant chart plotter.

No I am very much a belt and braces sort of a chap. I didn't only have one hand held GPS as backup I had two plus AIS and I also had a sextant and the relevant tables to take and plot a fix. One wonder whether you would set off across the Pacific without a paper chart?

 

[LadyInBed]

One wonder whether you would set off across the Pacific without a paper chart?

Are you talking small scale passage chart, large scale charts for all the islands on route or both?

 

[harvey38]

Commercial airlines stopped using paper maps many moons ago but a lot of General Aviation and glider traffic still use them but that is only to ensure we remain within designated
airspace but as we all use GPS, they are only carried because it is still a requirement!

 

[MADRIGAL]

Although I sail on a budget, I had never thought of second hand charts. I suppose I am one of those technophobes, as LadyinBed suggested, because I rely on paper charts for routine navigation and passage planning; the plotter/gps is my backup system. My concerns about second hand charts would be possibly missing out on a more recent and more accurate hydrographic survey that may capture more detail than notices to mariners provide, and the physical condition of the charts: after being folded, soaked in the cockpit, and subject to many erasures, they could be less than legible in places!

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The needs of airlines and boaters are different. If all the electronics on a modern jet fail then probably its curtains for all on board. If the primary nav system fails they can possibly navigate by radio instruction though at considerable hazard. Their budget is such that they can afford a vast amount of redundancy of both equipment and power so that complete failure of all systems is v unlikely

Significantly few flights are more than half a day long so any increase sunspot activity which might disrupt GPS, can be anticipated and thus take precaution. Though if Russia and USA come to blows and turn off the GPS satellites then that wont help.

The boater is much more on their own. Few of us have satellite phones or similar to ask for assistance once beyond the range of shore based VHF, and our budgets and indeed ability to house complex backups is limited. Simple backup such as paper charts then give a fairly economic fallback.

 

[Halo]

To answer the OP's question I would say look at Imray Charts and Admirality folios charts on ebay.
I have very up to date eletrconic charts ( Navionics on ploter, ipad and phone updated before serious trips) and the above paper charts

 

[graham]

Sat in the cabin at night at anchor I like to spread a paper chart out on the table and plan the next days passage.

While sailing the passage I rarely get the paper charts out.

Edging into a shallow bay to anchor sometimes the paper charts have more detail (than electronic plotters) of drying rocks that may rear their ugly heads later in the night.

 

[Never Grumble]

Although I sail on a budget, I had never thought of second hand charts. I suppose I am one of those technophobes, as LadyinBed suggested, because I rely on paper charts for routine navigation and passage planning; the plotter/gps is my backup system. My concerns about second hand charts would be possibly missing out on a more recent and more accurate hydrographic survey that may capture more detail than notices to mariners provide, and the physical condition of the charts: after being folded, soaked in the cockpit, and subject to many erasures, they could be less than legible in places!

You can check chart issue numbers and notice to mariners applicable to that chart on the website admiralty.co.uk

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Although I sail on a budget, I had never thought of second hand charts. I suppose I am one of those technophobes, as LadyinBed suggested, because I rely on paper charts for routine navigation and passage planning; the plotter/gps is my backup system. My concerns about second hand charts would be possibly missing out on a more recent and more accurate hydrographic survey that may capture more detail than notices to mariners provide, and the physical condition of the charts: after being folded, soaked in the cockpit, and subject to many erasures, they could be less than legible in places!

I was taught that charts were never to be taken up to the cockpit, the hardest grade of pencil to be used on them was 2B, so that erasures did no damage, and that dripping oilskin jackets were to be taken off while working on them.
My charts are in excellent condition, probably because I don't get to go sailing nearly enough

 

[Matador]

Hello, awhile back there was an announcement that the Admiralty considering scrapping the leisure chart folios. There was a consultation period for us boaters to take part in, which i did. Never heard the result of the consultation. So I hope these chart folios will continue to be available, we are coastal sailors and use paper charts and GPS. I have often wondered that with modern printing technology why can't they offer a print on demand service for paper charts? Cheers.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Print On Demand is now in place for paper charts. A couple of years ago I replaced my standard chart Scotland West Coast portfolio and the majority were printed on demand by BookHarbour, some had obviously been printed earlier and had been updated by hand, probably running down paper stock.

Like you I remember the consultation. I guess print on demand for the leisure portfolios would be prohibitive as most chandelers do not have such a printing facility. Additionally, I wonder if most leisure sailors are now relying on electronic charts and reflects sales of Leisure Portfolios.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Hello, awhile back there was an announcement that the Admiralty considering scrapping the leisure chart folios. There was a consultation period for us boaters to take part in, which i did. Never heard the result of the consultation. So I hope these chart folios will continue to be available, we are coastal sailors and use paper charts and GPS. I have often wondered that with modern printing technology why can't they offer a print on demand service for paper charts? Cheers.

Admiralty folios are still currently available, and if that ceases then Imray (whose chart I prefer) will still be available.

The whole virtue of current paper charts is that the big A0 or A1 size prints show a large area and at a readable scale. As most of us only have A4 printers readily accessible, print on demand would be less use particularly as domestic printer ink systems are not as resilient or readable as commercial laser jet printers.

A commercial printer could possibly use 1m by 2.5m plan printers and use waterproof plastic paper but the one off print costs would probably be very high compared with bulk printed folios. (Judging by what we charge clients for repeat copies of long plans)

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Admiralty folios are still currently available, and if that ceases then Imray (whose chart I prefer) will still be available.

The whole virtue of current paper charts is that the big A0 or A1 size prints show a large area and at a readable scale. As most of us only have A4 printers readily accessible, print on demand would be less use particularly as domestic printer ink systems are not as resilient or readable as commercial laser jet printers.

A commercial printer could possibly use 1m by 2.5m plan printers and use waterproof plastic paper but the one off print costs would probably be very high compared with bulk printed folios. (Judging by what we charge clients for repeat copies of long plans)

Many OS products have been print-on-demand for the last decade or more - 1:10,000 maps since the 1990s. It isn't a big problem - most copy centres have large-format printers, and the actual cost of producing large-format prints isn't that high; a few pounds per A0 or bigger sheet. We used a large format inkjet plotter (66" wide, roll-fed) for short print runs - the cross-over point between doing that and getting maps printed was around 200 copies. The main cost was in time trimming and folding the maps! Print-on-demand doesn't mean that you print things at home (though that is possible if you have the equipment); usually it means either that the supplier prints the product when required, or a specialist supplier (e.g. Chart Agent) prints it for you. To the end user, it isn't actually a big deal.

PS. It could mean the end of buying charts at the chandler because of the investment required to provide the service. but maybe not - I've just checked and a 36" wide roll-fed plotter similar to the ones we used is around £2.5k from HP. Media (including UV-resistant ink) and suitable paper (we used an anti-cockle heavy weight paper) work out at a few pounds per copy .

 

[Matador]

Many OS products have been print-on-demand for the last decade or more - 1:10,000 maps since the 1990s. It isn't a big problem - most copy centres have large-format printers, and the actual cost of producing large-format prints isn't that high; a few pounds per A0 or bigger sheet. We used a large format inkjet plotter (66" wide, roll-fed) for short print runs - the cross-over point between doing that and getting maps printed was around 200 copies. The main cost was in time trimming and folding the maps! Print-on-demand doesn't mean that you print things at home (though that is possible if you have the equipment); usually it means either that the supplier prints the product when required, or a specialist supplier (e.g. Chart Agent) prints it for you. To the end user, it isn't actually a big deal.

Thanks, thats what I meant. I am not being a luddite, there should be a choice.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Many OS products have been print-on-demand for the last decade or more - 1:10,000 maps since the 1990s.

Grants Bookshop in Glasgow was doing print-on-demand of 25-inch and 50-inch OS maps in the late seventies or early eighties. Mind you, I think that may have been enlargements from microfiche.

 

[Frank1eG]

Hi there, I plan to sail around the UK and Ireland this summer. Where can I buy (on-line) secondhand Admiralty or Imray paper charts? Under 5 years old. I would update them using Notices to Mariners. Thanks. Cheers,

Hi,
I bought some Silent and South coast to Devon on Ebay. Always worth a try

 

[JumbleDuck]

Hello, awhile back there was an announcement that the Admiralty considering scrapping the leisure chart folios.

Like you I remember the consultation.

At the time, some bloke wrote

Leisure Folios will not be discontinued; only individual Leisure charts. For most of us, the Folios represent considerably better value for money than individual charts.

And that seems to be what happened. Leisure Folious meet the SOLAS chart carrying requirements for (all? small?) commercial craft, so I imagine that they sell a fair number to owners who want to carry a legal figleaf while relying on their plotters.