Seaworthy small boat?

[Larida]

I am just thinking about buying a rather small sailing boat which I plan to use for sailing at the german north sea coast and lateron in the baltic.
Due to my limited budget combined with very restricted experience with boats as an owner (would be my first boat), I prefer a newer boat so that I can come to sail directly and do not have to bother with too much maintenance work in the beginning. This reduces the size.... well, at least this goes together well with my sailing ambitions - I prefer the more sportive kind of sailing.

I filtered out quite a lot by now and ended up with a First 25.7 or 260 with lifting keel, about 8-10 years old. Two exemplars are on my list of boats I plan to visit in the following weeks - in South Brittany.

However, I encountered some problems - if I bought one of these boats I would have to sail them home, which means first to the Netherlands this year, to Germany next year.
It is (or can be) a very nice region for sailing, and I would really like to make this trip together with a crew of 2-3 people, but... with this small boat?

I've been sailing twice in the northern part of Brittany up to now with a 40ft boat: from Brest to the Netherlands in dense fog and nearly no wind - not a nice sailing trip, but ok for such a small boat as well. And some years before from Southampton via the Channel Islands to Brest in force 6 and 7 south-westerly wind and with quite high waves (2-3 m) - I guess that would not be ok with the boat.

So my question is, how to judge this boat which I currently do not know but from pictures and reading specifications... CE-category B allows for conditions which I would say are far too much for such a boat (due to size, but also due to the special rudders it has...).

What is your opinion - especially of those of you who own a First 260 or similar?

Or does anyone have some good tips for the passage?
I planned some alternatives along the french coast, only, but for some conditions it might make sense to move across to the british coast.

 

[prv]

Don't forget the possibility of transporting by road

Pete

 

[Seajet]

Larida,

Small sailing boats have crossed oceans happily, it's really a mater of preparation and the skill / courage of the skipper; If you haven't already read them, I would recommend the books 'Shrimpy' by Shane Acton, and 'Very Willing Griffin' by David Blagden.

I don't know the boats you mention, but I can say I personally don't like twin rudders; it means the rudders are vulnerable to damage as they're not behind the keel, and is usually a sign of a fat stern which would lever a single rudder out of the water.

This may be a modern racing boat designed for fast downwind sailing, or more often the wish to create a big aft cabin, for appeal at boat shows !

There is also the problem of wear on the linkages and alignment, or they will turn into speed brakes...

One of many ways experienced sailors use to judge how seaworthy a boat is, is the ballast ratio; ie how much of the total weight / displacement of the boat is ballast ?

Anything over 40% is regarded good, less than that and an eyebrow might be raised !

One must also consider where this ballast is carried; a bulb on the end of a deep keel has vastly more effect than a short keel or concrete in the bilges which is next to useless.

As to number of crew / size of boat, I suppose one could have 2 good seagoing bunks - with leecloths - and 3 crew, but there needs to be a place for everyone to sleep when in port...

 

[Larida]

Thanks for the literature recommendations, Seajet.

I know, of course, about the small boats crossing oceans.... (not to forget the british guys sailing with a wayfarer to Norway...)
I even sailed on such a 6.5m Pogo 1, once. That is even one of my favorites (at least if it was about 1m longer), but I want two things: at least a bit (not much) of interior (the one I sailed was nearly empty inside), and an inboard motor (making things expensive...).

Concerning the ballast ratio: as for the majority of boats of this size, at least the ones I looked at, it is about 30 %. The lifting keel has 650 kg and is 1.85m long.

About the rudders, you obviously have the same opinion as I have, but many people, owners included, do not see any problems with their stability.
They are also the reason why I looked at a First 27.7 as an alternative, but amongst other things, I do not like the keel solution there. A lifting keel of 2.2 m that cannot be used while sailing is not practicable in the flat areas of the baltic where I will come to sail with the boat, finally. Here, the 25.7 would be much better to use.

There are not so many alternatives for me - my favorite boats are more than twice in price... and even the more seaworthy boats with less sporty character are too expensive, but obviously mainly due to their length, which I do not really want but for this single reason of seaworthiness.
There are definitively too few <30ft boats being built during the last decades.

A transport on land is quite expensive, and I do not like the idea itself... sailing preferred
... it should not only be for the transport but also for enabling me to go to Sweden or Norway or e.g. Helgoland in the following years - waves of about 2 m should therefore be possible for the boat.

 

[jubro]

My first boat was a 27 foot British cruiser/racer with a lifting keel and a wide hull, and it felt as safe as a larger boat. The difference was comfort. When the sea got lumpy, my little boat was shaken around a lot, but as long as I could hold on and keep the water out, it was safe. I would certainly choose a performance boat over a fat cruising boat at this size, because you need the extra power to drive through the waves, since you don't have the weight of a larger boat.

I think the First 260 or 25.7 would make a great coastal cruiser. You don't need a bigger boat unless you want to be more self-sufficient, spending days at sea or at anchorage without running out of supplies.

Twin rudders allows a fast modern hull shape with good handling under sail. There's more equipment to maintain, and steering in reverse is harder. Some twin rudder systems let you dry out, which would be useful on the Dutch and German coasts, I think.

There's a British design called an MG Spring 25 that you might like - it has a shallow wing keel and twin rudders, better accomodation than the First, and similar performance. They're usually good value as well, and they can dry out on the keel and rudders.

When a boat gets to ten years old, some of the equipment will be worn out. Be prepared to do some maintenance, and spend some money on replacing things. My best advice is to keep the boat as simple as possible, so there's less to go wrong. If the boat still has the original sails and was raced, they will be no good, and new sails are expensive. If you like performance, you won't be happy with old sails! Definitely only buy a boat with good sails.

 

[Seajet]

Larida,

my 6.7 metre boat has a displacement ( without all the junk I carry ) of 2,500lbs, and the keel is 950lbs.

Combined with a wide beam and modest, efficient sailplan she is very stiff, and able to keep going into the rough stuff; she'll certainly take more than I can !

For your purposes, if that is too small I'd recommend a look at the Sadler 25, Contessa 26, maybe the David Sadler designed ( actually 26' ) Frigate 27 if you can find a well built one, or how about a Trapper 500/501 ?

The Trappers are good boats, we test sailed one in a F5+ and it handled well, also a good interior, particularly on the 501. They offer fin or twin keels.

These boats seem a sort of well kept secret ( apart from idiots like me publishing here ) and seem to go for lower prices than they deserve.

Other boats which come to mind are the Achilles 840 & 9 metre, Albin Vega & Seamaster 925, if you can find good examples.

 

[Larida]

...more and more boats I never heard of... obviously the british boats are not so well known, here. I looked up some of them - quite similar to the scandinavian boats from the same time which I know much better. Generally, although certainly lacking the racing character, the design and the interior come close to what I like, but I do not dare to buy such an old boat - the latest ones of them being built in the beginning of the eighties - that is now 30 years!

A friend once had a (not very cheap) boat from that time, and he had to put very much money in it right after buying it. Besides the whole material had become weak or soft, where there was nothing to do about. It was a Dehler, so not the worst quality, usually. That is what I want to avoid by buying a newer boat.
I think that is just too old for the plastic material - especially if it has stayed in salt water and even though "well maintained".
In the nineties, boats of this size and type obviously were not built so much.
By the way, what do you think about the Hunter Channel 27? Might be much slower than the First, but more seaworthy?

 

[Seajet]

...more and more boats I never heard of... obviously the british boats are not so well known, here. I looked up some of them - quite similar to the scandinavian boats from the same time which I know much better. Generally, although certainly lacking the racing character, the design and the interior come close to what I like, but I do not dare to buy such an old boat - the latest ones of them being built in the beginning of the eighties - that is now 30 years!

A friend once had a (not very cheap) boat from that time, and he had to put very much money in it right after buying it. Besides the whole material had become weak or soft, where there was nothing to do about. It was a Dehler, so not the worst quality, usually. That is what I want to avoid by buying a newer boat.
I think that is just too old for the plastic material - especially if it has stayed in salt water and even though "well maintained".
In the nineties, boats of this size and type obviously were not built so much.
By the way, what do you think about the Hunter Channel 27? Might be much slower than the First, but more seaworthy?

I have no first hand knowledge of the Hunter Channel 27, but I doubt you could go far wrong with one.

As for age, my boat is 34 in July, we've held parties for her 18th & 21st !

GRP doesn't ' go off ' in salt water, and she's fine; and definitely not for sale !

 

[Lakesailor]

Perfect boat for trip from England to the North Germany coast.....

​

 

[Larida]

Another boat I had on my list is the Gib Sea 284 - there is one for sale in Dartmouth Devon (built in 1997) - I know some larger Gib Seas (one of them a 43) from my sailing exams at the North Sea and always liked them.

This boat has a combined bilge-keel + lift keel solution, which also sounds interesting. Anybody who knows this boat?

 

[jubro]

Hi again,

You are asking for a lot! You don't want to spend much money, but you want a boat that is quite new, in good condition, with good performance, and seaworthy, but with shoal draft. You will find good and bad examples of every type of boat, so it's hard to recommend a particular design. You need to go and look at some real boats and find one that's been well looked after. I think your friend was unlucky with his Dehler - I have one and they're strong boats.

The Hunter 27 is very different to a First 260, and the Gib'sea 284 is somewhere in the middle. You would choose the Hunter for strength and the First for performance. The Gib'sea gives you neither.

I think you need to compromise on your requirements. It sounds like you will need either a lifting keel or twin keels to sail where you live, so that is a must-have. It also sounds like you need to have a boat that will not need to be fixed up. You are concerned about safety, so I think your compromise must be on performance. I also suggest you don't worry about the age of the boat. An old boat that is well cared for is better than a newer boat that has been neglected. I've seen some wrecks that are only 3 years old. Some owners just don't care, so be careful.

Set a price, look at anything you can afford and buy a boat in good condition, and you'll be happy. Choose a boat by its condition, not its design.

 

[Larida]

... yes, I know that I am a demanding person and I think this _is_ much money I want to spend on the boat - definitively more than on my car...

Well, to come back to my original intention: I had more or less concluded that the First 260 should be my compromise (otherwise, if the question was only about performance, I would choose a Pogo8.5 or a Django 770!).
Like that, the First seems to be an ideal boat for me - if I first have it at home.
I do not like the boats you usually find at the german coast (Bavaria and Hanse, more for living than for sailing...) and strongly prefer these cruiser-racers.
But, before visiting the boats in Brittany (actually three different Firsts), which is a long way for me, I want to collect as many informations about them as possible. In fact, two of them are obviously in good state (according to recent photos and data I got), just some additions are needed.
And my main concern was to find some experiences about sailing with this (or similar) boats in the area I have to pass through, i.e. around Brittany and then via the Channel towards Amsterdam.
If I was told that it is absolutely impossible or at least stupid, I do not have to go there. But if not, then I would like to get some ideas about how to plan a passage and e.g. which ports to choose on either side of the channel.

I guess many of you have sailed this region, especially the channel island seem to be quite popular.
I have just sailed there twice in different conditions, but with a certainly more seaworthy and larger boat and besides Alderney and Camaret-sur-Mer we did not stop at any harbour.
So I cannot really judge the combination boat--channel... in this respect I also meant the question about the rudders attached to the boat like this. I know that steering is a bit more difficult, but suppose to get used to this.
But can they stand the waves to be expected on the passage described?

 

[Tranona]

The boats you are looking at are capable of undertaking the passages you want. Many British sailors cruise in those areas in boats under 25ft, although the preference tends to be for older designs because that is what is available on a low budget.

The key is in planning and equipping the boat appropriately. The main issue to consider are the strong tides (particularly at the western end), heavy commercial traffic (more so at the east) and of course, the weather. Going west to east as you are planning is easier as the prevailing winds, in the summer at least, are from the west.

You have already identified the major choice, which is whether to keep to the European coast or cross over to the English coast and back. As ever, there are pros and cons. Keeping to the south means you have stronger tides which you can use to your advantage and you encounter little commercial traffic except around the major ports. On the other hand the coastline is long with relatively few all weather, all tide harbours plus a number of headlands which require careful planning to pass with a favourable tide.

The advantage of crossing to the English side is that the distance is shorter, coasting with one tide hops is more practical, although headlands still need care. There are many usable harbours and anchorages to wait out tides or bad weather. The downside is that you have to re-cross at the eastern end, although with planning this is perfectly feasible.

Thik you have to look on this passage as an adventure rather than an efficient way of moving the boat from France to Germany. You probably have to think of a 4-6 weeks timespan, and the costs, extra equipment, food, harbour dues, breakages, wear and tear on boat are likely to be greater than putting it on a truck and taking it off 2 days later in your home port.