Sea trials.

[Tranona]

You really need to understand the difference between a "dealer" and a "broker" They are not the same and you should always be clear about the legal capacity of the person you are dealing with..

A broker is agent for the beneficial owner of the boat and takes his instructions from the owner. He has no financial interest in the boat. As I pointed out the owner can set any conditions he wants about sea trials, but normally he would be advised to only offer them if the potential purchaser is prepared to pay the cost - just as he has to pay for the survey. That is because the purchaser is relying on these checks to make sure he is happy with the purchase as he has no comeback on the vendor once he has paid for the boat. As I also said there is no reason why the seller cannot choose to re-imburse the purchaser the cost if he buys. However, would you give carte blanche for anybody to try out your boat without having made any commitment to purchase?

When the seller is a "dealer" who owns the boat, he is then bound by consumer law in addition to the contract. He is also the principal and the beneficial owner of the boat, so can make his own decision about whether to allow a sea trial or not as the cost is coming out of his profit. He may well decide it is in his interest to secure a sale - but it is he that is bearing the risk and the cost.

I often think potential buyers have unrealistic expectations of what a private vendor should do. Remember he is not in trade for profit. He is selling his own personal property and he therefore has his own interests to protect - and his broker (agent) is also there to protect his interests.

 

[David_Jersey]

A good friend of mine is purchasing a boat of 220k stature, he has paid his deposit, as the boats already in the water the sea trial will be carried out first then if all is ok the boat will be lifted for survey shortly after.

For a vessel that would not normally be skippered by a proffesional I would not expect to be charged simply because the Vendor can't be bothered himself and is also dumb enuf to use a broker who is not able to act for him. If that is a deal breaker then f#ck it

My bet is that the broker is trying it on for a mate / brother-in-law for a bit of Xmas money...........but I am a sceptical sod

 

[nicho]

Recently purchased our Broom 38 through Southampton Waters Yacht Brokerage at Shamrock Quay (very pleasant experience and no connection other than satisfied customer).
They too said that they would need to employ a qualified skipper to take the sea trial. They advised me that in the event that the sale did not proceed I would have to cover his cost, but not if the sale proceded to completion.
So essentially, if they get their commission they take it as a cost and if no commission no cost.
Seems realistic to me on boat 12 purchase.

When we recently sold our S41, the broker himself carried out the sea trial with the prospective buyers. It was done on his insurance.

 

[John100156]

You really need to understand the difference between a "dealer" and a "broker" They are not the same and you should always be clear about the legal capacity of the person you are dealing with..

Agree with that, good to check the status of the selling agent if you can. But come on chaps, surely it comes down to simple economics and market forces at the end of the day?

If the boat is an absolute steal and perfectly suits your needs, most buyers would accept the additional expenses levied on them by the seller or his agent, but they should be reimbursed IMO if the sale proceeds.

I dont think I would pay them at all, but I can be bought! All I would want to pick up is the cost of the surveyor to protect me as the buyer. It is to some extent a buyers market in the UK at the moment.

The 8% fee seems astronomical to me, I would expect the cost of a skipper and sea trial to be absorbed therein, but I suppose you would need to know the terms of the agreement to sell first, does it include free transportation and storage of the sellers boat etc.

I am interested in this thread, I hope to sell my T34 and to buy a larger boat soon!

 

[Tranona]

For a vessel that would not normally be skippered by a proffesional I would not expect to be charged simply because the Vendor can't be bothered himself and is also dumb enuf to use a broker who is not able to act for him. If that is a deal breaker then f#ck it

My bet is that the broker is trying it on for a mate / brother-in-law for a bit of Xmas money...........but I am a sceptical sod

As I said - some people have unreasonable expectations of a private vendor. Nuff said!

 

[mlthomas]

I'm with mainshiptom, not about the dealer/broker issue (agree the difference) more about does the seller want to sell.

 

[Nick_H]

I often think potential buyers have unrealistic expectations of what a private vendor should do.

Strange, I often think the opposite, that private sellers don't realise they are the supplier and the potential buyer is the customer. I see boats for sale on brokers yards for months or even years, at unrealistic prices, or poorly presented, or maybe because they weren't flexible enough when someone did show an interest. In the current market it's even more difficult to sell, so investing £50-£100 on a skipper to keep a seriously interested buyer makes lots of sense.

Personally, i'd pay the skipper's fee if I had to whether I was the buyer or seller, as it's too small an amount to lose a sale / lose a boat over, and I gave up doing things on principle a long time ago, when I realised that it's a bit pointless, 'cos nobody takes any notice.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I don't think that's an issue at all. Firstly, as a seller/owner, I'm not sure I'd want the broker or more likely some spotty oik from the tearoom taking my boat out on a seatrial without being 100% sure that they're capable of handling the boat. Secondly, I'm not sure that the insurance company would be very happy if there was an accident and they hadn't been informed about the fact that a person other than the owner was helming the boat without the owner being on board. I have my boat moved around quite regularly by other people and I make 100% sure that the insurance co knows about every movement and invariably they ask to see the qualifications of whoever is going to be helming the boat
In this case and given the value of the boat, I think the broker is acting perfectly responsibly by refusing to do the sea trial. As for who pays for the skipper, the sea trial is part of the survey process as far as I'm concerned and the buyer should pay but I'm sure that the buyer and seller could come to some agreement over the costs. If the buyer walks away because he might have to pay the skipper's cost then I wouldn't view him as a serious buyer IMHO

 

[nicho]

Surely once you get to the stage where you are undertaking a sea trial then that would be the final stages of finalising a purchase. If a dealer is taking their commision of say 8%, on the value of this boat close to 20 k, then I would expect the blinkin' broker to pay, I would tell them to stick it up their jumper if they expected me to pay for a professional skipper, I would expect a reputable dealer to deal with this as part of their commision.

I don't think any broker is taking 8% these days - mine settled on 3.5%

 

[Renegade_Master]

I don't think that's an issue at all. Firstly, as a seller/owner, I'm not sure I'd want the broker or more likely some spotty oik from the tearoom taking my boat out on a seatrial without being 100% sure that they're capable of handling the boat. Secondly, I'm not sure that the insurance company would be very happy if there was an accident and they hadn't been informed about the fact that a person other than the owner was helming the boat without the owner being on board. I have my boat moved around quite regularly by other people and I make 100% sure that the insurance co knows about every movement and invariably they ask to see the qualifications of whoever is going to be helming the boat
In this case and given the value of the boat, I think the broker is acting perfectly responsibly by refusing to do the sea trial. As for who pays for the skipper, the sea trial is part of the survey process as far as I'm concerned and the buyer should pay but I'm sure that the buyer and seller could come to some agreement over the costs. If the buyer walks away because he might have to pay the skipper's cost then I wouldn't view him as a serious buyer IMHO

As usual good Logic from Mike. Once the buyer has put down a deposit and signd the S & P agreement, he is tied to the contract, which is "subject to survey and sea trial"

With regards the sea trial itself most surveyors should be able to quote the buyer for the survey and include doing the sea trial himself upon relaunch.
After all the survey may reveal the boat needing say new cutlass bearings for example, so good reason for the surveyor to do the sea trial to see if they have been fitted properly i.e. no vibes. Assuming they get done by the vendor which I would expect.

In the event we will carry out sea trials once the deposit is placed but not before.

If the deal then fails due to problems revealed by the sea trial and the vendors unwillingness to fix the problem, then I would expect the vendor to cover the costs.

If it doesnt fail then I would'nt (oops that sounds almost like a double negative)

 

[nicho]

When we recently sold our S41, the broker himself carried out the sea trial with the prospective buyers. It was done on his insurance.

I should have perhaps added that during our recent sale, the sea trial was carried out after a 10% deposit had been lodged with the broker, and the prsopective owner was not allowed near the wheel (he was relatively inexperienced). The deposit showed intent and was subject to return if the sea trial or subsequent survey proved unsatisfactory.

It's not uncommon for so called "buyers" to ask for a sea trial just for a quick "jolly" on a weekend, and asking them to pay for it quickly weeds out the "not so serious"

 

[Renegade_Master]

I should have perhaps added that during our recent sale, the sea trial was carried out after a 10% deposit had been lodged with the broker, and the prsopective owner was not allowed near the wheel (he was relatively inexperienced). The deposit showed intent and was subject to return if the sea trial or subsequent survey proved unsatisfactory.

It's not uncommon for so called "buyers" to ask for a sea trial just for a quick "jolly" on a weekend, and asking them to pay for it quickly weeds out the "not so serious"

Spot on Nicho