Scurvey

[Wansworth]

Interesting reading Two years before the mast by Dana he mentions several crew members near death on the homeward voyage when the stopped an outward bound ship and took on onions and potetoes that cured the crews illness within days they were back to normal.Considering Captain Cook had related scurveyto lack of fruit seems the Americans who called British sailers “Limeys” could have paid more attention as they sailed from California without taking on citrus fruit,their diet seemed to be mainly meat and bread……and duff

 

[Stingo]

....could have paid more attention as they sailed from California without taking on citrus fruit,their diet seemed to be mainly meat and bread……and duff

Nothing has changed, except that that diet is now called a Big Mac

 

[Neeves]

As you point out - onions and potatoes (and I think it is the onions) solve the problems. It does not need to be citrus fruit.

Odd that we were called Limeys as limes (if I had to make a judgement) are much more uncommon the lemons - but maybe lies kept better (or were more common at the last port of call before crossing the Atlantic.

The Philippines have a delightful equivalent, Kalamansi, which ensure that the local rum is a real killer . Happy days!

Jonathan

 

[Sandy]

Anything with Vitamin C will sort out scurvy. We have far more knowledge than back in Captain Cook's time. Cook had a solution = result.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Yanks called Brits limeys because daily lime juice rations were a legal requirement on all British ships. That was still the case in the 1970s when I was at sea.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

As you point out - onions and potatoes (and I think it is the onions) solve the problems. It does not need to be citrus fruit.

Odd that we were called Limeys as limes (if I had to make a judgement) are much more uncommon the lemons - but maybe lies kept better (or were more common at the last port of call before crossing the Atlantic.

The Philippines have a delightful equivalent, Kalamansi, which ensure that the local rum is a real killer . Happy days!

Jonathan

The use of limes was because there was a confusion of nomenclature, and some Admiralty clerk got the idea that it was limes that were needed! As you say, it doesn't really matter - concentrated lemon or lime juice was more convenient to carry on long voyages than fresh fruit and veg.

Actually, lemons and limes are both cultivars - I don't think we know the wild equivalent, but it's the same for both. So taxonomically, they're probably the same thing.

Of course, Cook noticed that fruit and veg. stopped scurvy, and he was rigorous in ensuring that his men got fresh stuff whenever possible. But the reason why it worked wasn't known until the 20th century - there were misapprehensions about it as late as WW1, as various Heroic Age polar expeditions found (Scott's Polar party may well have suffered from incipient scurvy).

 

[lustyd]

If Plymouth distillery is to be believed it was lime juice rather than limes and was taken with gin as an easy way to get sailors to consume it.

 

[Leighb]

Citrus fruit are a very good source of Vitamin C, as are potatoes and onions. The problem with potatoes is that Vit C is very water soluble therefore much of the Vit C content goes into the water when boiling them, onions are not usually boiled so not so much affected. I am not sure to what extent Vit C is degraded by heat, so maybe all cooking reduces the content? Perhaps someone on here can enlighten us.
Obviously fresh citrus fruit juice is best.

 

[Wansworth]

Citrus fruit are a very good source of Vitamin C, as are potatoes and onions. The problem with potatoes is that Vit C is very water soluble therefore much of the Vit C content goes into the water when boiling them, onions are not usually boiled so not so much affected. I am not sure to what extent Vit C is degraded by heat, so maybe all cooking reduces the content? Perhaps someone on here can enlighten us.
Obviously fresh citrus fruit juice is best.

In Dana’s account the sailor was so far gone the cook boiled up the potatoes and fed him the liquid

 

[LittleSister]

. . . it was lime juice rather than limes and was taken with gin as an easy way to get sailors to consume it.

Sailors took that much chivvying to drink gin?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Sailors took that much chivvying to drink gin?

Gin was for the wardroom; the ordinary sailors got rum!

 

[johnalison]

In Dana’s account the sailor was so far gone the cook boiled up the potatoes and fed him the liquid

I have read the book, but not for many years and had forgotten the incident. In fact, potatoes do contain vitamin C but this tends to be destroyed in cooking. Oddly enough, chips, which are cooked quickly, probably contain more, and I think that peeling potatoes decreases their nutritional value too.

Although Dana had pretensions as a writer, his writing is not as good as Melville’s but the book is a fascinating account of the true event, though it was criticised at the time for being a bit novellish, and for sanitising some of the account, especially for skating over the possible sexual exploitation of the boys.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I have read the book, but not for many years and had forgotten the incident. In fact, potatoes do contain vitamin C but this tends to be destroyed in cooking. Oddly enough, chips, which are cooked quickly, probably contain more, and I think that peeling potatoes decreases their nutritional value too.

Although Dana had pretensions as a writer, his writing is not as good as Melville’s but the book is a fascinating account of the true event, though it was criticised at the time for being a bit novellish, and for sanitising some of the account, especially for skating over the possible sexual exploitation of the boys.

And his own involvement with the the "ladies" in California! But it's a good description of a trade that only existed for a relatively short time, and of course even if sanitized, it's a reasonable description of life aboard a working square-rigger, especially it's description of the exploitation of sailors. It's also a good description of California BEFORE it became a part of the USA.

A trick question - what is the oldest State Capitol in the USA? (Clue - it isn't in California!)

 

[johnalison]

And his own involvement with the the "ladies" in California! But it's a good description of a trade that only existed for a relatively short time, and of course even if sanitized, it's a reasonable description of life aboard a working square-rigger, especially it's description of the exploitation of sailors. It's also a good description of California BEFORE it became a part of the USA.

A trick question - what is the oldest State Capitol in the USA? (Clue - it isn't in California!)

No idea. I'll go for Honolulu.

 

[lustyd]

Gin was for the wardroom; the ordinary sailors got rum!

Not according to Plymouth distillery they didn't. And they have the sales records

 

[Stemar]

Gin was for the wardroom; the ordinary sailors got rum!

Not according to Plymouth distillery they didn't. And they have the sales records

Knowing Navy supply agents, I'd guess the ordinary sailors got whatever was cheap and easily available.

 

[TLouth7]

Interestingly the limes that replaced lemons in Royal Navy rations (because limes could be sourced cheaply from the Caribbean colonies) were actually much lower in vitamin C than the original lemons. Also the process of boiling the juice into a concentrate and storing it in copper entirely destroyed the vitamin rendering the practice pointless. Luckily by then the Navy were making shorter voyages at sea on steamships so they didn't notice.

Tim Harford covered this in his podcast series Cautionary Tales, in the context of the lesson having been lost by the golden age of polar exploration, leading to lots of scurvy on for example Scott's fateful expedition.

 

[Praxinoscope]

And his own involvement with the the "ladies" in California! But it's a good description of a trade that only existed for a relatively short time, and of course even if sanitized, it's a reasonable description of life aboard a working square-rigger, especially it's description of the exploitation of sailors. It's also a good description of California BEFORE it became a part of the USA.

A trick question - what is the oldest State Capitol in the USA? (Clue - it isn't in California!)

I think it might be Santa Fe New Mexico.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

During one of Christopher Columbus's early voyages a group of desperately ill sailors begged to be jettisoned to die on dry land. On the way back , Columbus was amazed to see the bearded sailors waving to them . They apparently feasted on fruits and vegetables and made full recoveries.

In honor, the island was named Curacao (Portuguese for cure).

 

[johnalison]

Interestingly the limes that replaced lemons in Royal Navy rations (because limes could be sourced cheaply from the Caribbean colonies) were actually much lower in vitamin C than the original lemons. Also the process of boiling the juice into a concentrate and storing it in copper entirely destroyed the vitamin rendering the practice pointless. Luckily by then the Navy were making shorter voyages at sea on steamships so they didn't notice.

Tim Harford covered this in his podcast series Cautionary Tales, in the context of the lesson having been lost by the golden age of polar exploration, leading to lots of scurvy on for example Scott's fateful expedition.

I dare say that the main ingredients of food were pretty well known by 1900, such as CHOs and fats, as well as the various salts. It must have taken a giant leap of imagination to realise that important factors such as the vitamins could be necessary in such minuscule amounts.