Schengen Visa - 90/180 rule

[GHA]

I would expect a reciprocal 6 months which is what we've given them. If they don't, then we should reduce to 3 months.

Sounds like wishful thinking unfortunately for a lot of cruisers - any evidence the EU will care what the UK might do as it's just another country? Looks unlikely so far....

 

[nortada]

Did some digging and found this ....

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:324:0023:0057:EN:PDF

Articles 4-11 apply to pleasure craft and returned goods relief in the EU. Some interesting rules in there ....

Had a quick look but isn’t this for goods returning to the EU rather than goods returning to the UK (from the EU), which the direction that interests most Brits i.e. taking the boat home after an extended stay abroad (not necessarily in the EU)

Oh dear?. I seem to have drifted back into VAT issues.?

 

[Graham376]

As this situation is unlikely to happen to me, possibly somebody who will be affected might like to pursue it with the EU help line.

I have just emailed the question to the RYA.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

this for example ...

Any loan, giving as security, hiring out or transfer before the expiry of the period referred to in paragraph 1 shall entail payment of the relevant import duties on the property concerned, at the rate applying on the date of such loan, giving as security, hiring out or transfer, on the basis of the type of property and the customs value ascertained or accepted on that date by the competent authorities.

Does this means that a boat exported and re-imported to the EU under returned goods relief must wait 12 months before it can be sold without paying relevant import duties?

But this is the nasty one ...

By way of derogation from the first paragraph of Article 7, relief may be granted in respect of personal property entered for free circulation before the person concerned establishes his normal place of residence in the customs territory of the Community, provided that he undertakes actually to establish his normal place of residence there within a period of six months. Such undertaking shall be accompanied by a security, the form and amount of which shall be determined by the competent authorities.

My interpretation is that to benefit from EU returned goods relief you need to establish residence in the EU. The implications of this for UK citizens without residency is the following ...

UK citizen, boat in the Med on 31.12.2020. Boat becomes EU goods and can be sold as VAT paid.

If that UK citizen then takes the boat out of the EU and returns it (for example a live aboard escaping the 90/180 rule), then he will only be able to retain union goods status if he establishes a residence in the EU within 6 months of returning. The only other option is move to 18 month temporary import, which means the boat is no longer VAT paid and cannot be sold as such in the EU.

Does anyone know of a way a VAT paid boat of a non-EU citizen can be re-imported and retain VAT paid status without residence in the EU.?

 

[nortada]

I have just emailed the question to the RYA.

RYA That should ruin their week?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Had a quick look but isn’t this for goods returning to the EU rather than goods returning to the UK, from the EU, which the direction that interests most Brits i.e. taking the boat home after an extended stay abroad (not necessarily in the EU)

I think the issue of goods returning to the UK from the EU, even after 01.01.2021 is fine - as a UK resident/citizen you can claim UK returned goods relief and regain UK VAT paid status. It's covered here:

Notice 236: Returned Goods Relief
Notice 8: sailing your pleasure craft to and from the UK

The problem will be for UK citizens with boats, VAT paid in the EU. As it looks (my interpretation of the rules), they cannot take their boats out of the EU as they will lose the EU VAT paid status and not be able to reclaim it using EU RTR as they are no longer EU residents/citizens. This will lower the value of their boats if and when they sell them in the EU.

 

[nortada]

this for example ...



Does this means that a boat exported and re-imported to the EU under returned goods relief must wait 12 months before it can be sold without paying relevant import duties?

But this is the nasty one ...



My interpretation is that to benefit from EU returned goods relief you need to establish residence in the EU. The implications of this for UK citizens without residency is the following ...

UK citizen, boat in the Med on 31.12.2020. Boat becomes EU goods and can be sold as VAT paid.

If that UK citizen then takes the boat out of the EU and returns it (for example a live aboard escaping the 90/180 rule), then he will only be able to retain union goods status if he establishes a residence in the EU within 6 months of returning. The only other option is move to 18 month temporary import, which means the boat is no longer VAT paid and cannot be sold as such in the EU.

Does anyone know of a way a VAT paid boat of a non-EU citizen can be re-imported and retain VAT paid status without residence in the EU.?

Once again EU residency is the get out of jail card.

The warnings have been around since that referendum over 4 years back so I can’t understand any long term British traveller not moving heaven and earth to get EU residency but I keep meeting people who can’t be bothered.

I think the crunch time will come next summer when boats set off on their summer adventures.

 

[Graham376]

Does anyone know of a way a VAT paid boat of a non-EU citizen can be re-imported and retain VAT paid status without residence in the EU.?

In a word no but, that's basically the question I've asked the RYA.

 

[Graham376]

The problem will be for UK citizens with boats, VAT paid in the EU. As it looks (my interpretation of the rules), they cannot take their boats out of the EU as they will lose the EU VAT paid status and not be able to reclaim it using EU RTR as they are no longer EU residents/citizens. This will lower the value of their boats if and when they sell them in the EU.

This of course depends on where the sales agreement says the boat is located

 

[jordanbasset]

Once again EU residency is the get out of jail card.

The warnings have been around since that referendum over 4 years back so I can’t understand any long term British traveller not moving heaven and earth to get EU residency but I keep meeting people who can’t be bothered.

I think the crunch time will come next summer when boats set off on their summer adventures.

Very unfair, there are people like me who enquired about residency but were scuppered as we needed to be in Spain for at least 6 months, (which we wouldn't be or want to be) so it was not an option.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

This of course depends on where the sales agreement says the boat is located

Would that not leave the new owner with a bit of explaining to do, not to mention risk? I don't think I would want to buy a boat where the sales contract contradicted the physical location of the boat. ?

 

[nortada]

Very unfair, there are people like me who enquired about residency but were scuppered as we needed to be in Spain for at least 6 months, (which we wouldn't be or want to be) so it was not an option.

Not at all unfair - a statement of reality. There are other countries, which might be more accommodating.

 

[jordanbasset]

Not at all unfair - a statement of reality. There are other countries, which might be more accommodating.

Yes they might be but if I don't want to go to them for any length of time that is not much use is it
As I said unfair, you made it sound as if people didn't try to sort out residency, I'm sure I am not alone

 

[Graham376]

Very unfair, there are people like me who enquired about residency but were scuppered as we needed to be in Spain for at least 6 months, (which we wouldn't be or want to be) so it was not an option.

But at least you tried whereas there are many out there we meet, who either aren't aware of the implications or just haven't bothered doing anything about it and are now panicking.

Those who planned on doing a slow retirement trip from UK to eastern Med, spending time in different countries along the way, will no doubt have to do a quicker trip to Turkey from where they will be able to visit eastern EU 90/180.

 

[nortada]

Yes they might be but if I don't want to go to them for any length of time that is not much use is it
As I said unfair, you made it sound as if people didn't try to sort out residency, I'm sure I am not alone

If you only want to go for short periods (90 in any 180 days) you may not want EU residency. But as we continue to discover, EU residency gives much more that some freedom of movement so any EU residency could prove useful.

Sorry to hear that some (like you), cannot meet the requirements for residency in your chosen country but I continually meet people who could get residency should they wish it but rather like to council, “Don’t bother as it will all come good on the night” and other’s take heed, which is not in their best interests.

JB have PMd you.

 

[RupertW]

Vic, I hope you are right but why would any country start changing rules that have stood them in good stead for many years?

At times, I think folk become too focused on the implications of Brexit and lose sight that we are joining another third country club. I think it unlikely that EU countries will erect extra fences, just to screw the Brits. More likely some EU countries with give the UK favoured country status but that will not extend to bending/breaking Schengen Rules.

Time will tell but unfortunately when it all becomes apparent it might be too late.

I don’t think they will screw us - just treat us like Australian and Americans.

 

[sailaboutvic]

@Garham you not read what I wrote , it's not a matter of leading a horse to water as you put it some just can't get a second residency in another country without it causing them a great deal of problems in the UK because of their personally situation.
Unlike you who is retired and probably have very little to do with uk another then popping over for a visit when you like some people have got bigger finance commitments.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I don’t think they will screw us - just treat us like Australian and Americans.

People here who now live else where and can't wait to put the boot in every time the uk does some thing not to there likening think just because the UK and pig minded that the EU going to take it out on people who travel , being cruisers or what ever , I don't think the EU that Pette .

 

[sailaboutvic]

But at least you tried whereas there are many out there we meet, who either aren't aware of the implications or just haven't bothered doing anything about it and are now panicking.

Those who planned on doing a slow retirement trip from UK to eastern Med, spending time in different countries along the way, will no doubt have to do a quicker trip to Turkey from where they will be able to visit eastern EU 90/180.

Who's panicking ? I'm not for one .

 

[truscott]

In the days before the EU there were far fewer people doing it, and I think that is what will cause the major differences - that and the IT situation now with cross-referenced databases and online checks/applications.

Today we have hoards of boats making their way around the Med, and look at the size of the ARC fleet compared to before the EU. There is simply more traffic, making it necessary to police.

I never had to queue going in and out of Croatia when I was doing it about a decade ago, (before they joined the EU) but the whole process did take time - the passport checks were quite quick, but I needed the temporary import paperwork as Croatian VAT wasn't paid, so there was always the time taken to head to a port of entry, moor up, sit in the transit berth and wait for them to finish the paperwork. As I recall there were fewer Italian boats in Croatia back then too - now the place is crawling with them - in the height of summer places like Mali Losinj are full - get there after 6pm and there are no berths left. It's even worse further south so I have been told.

With all that said, how does the following scenario work? ...

Any Brit with a boat in the EU on 31.12.2020 will have an EU VAT paid boat on the 01.01.2021 .... all well and good - Boat is union goods and can feeely circulate in the EU.

The Brit living on it can`t though, he has 90 days before he has to leave the Schengen area. If he returns to blighty then all is well and good, but what if he takes his boat with him to Turkey for example - should he export it from the EU? Is there such a thing as a temporary export?

If he exports it from the EU, then does he lose his EU VAT paid status? When he returns the boat to the EU can he use returning goods relief as a non-EU citizen or must he do a temporary import?

I am concerned that the 90/180 rule may result in Brits leaving the EU with their boats and ending up losing their EU VAT paid status. Does anyone know if this is the case?

What happens currently to the VAT paid status of an EU boat if an Australian citizen takes it out of the EU and rings it back in again?

I have been enjoying this and many of the other BREXIT oriented threads.

In answer to the quoted post, your UK registered, VAT paid, vessel will retain it's EU VAT paid status if it is in the EU on the 31st December 2020. You will have to surrender your Dekpa and obtain a 'Permanent' Transit Log that is the same as Kiwi and Ozzie folk (and other non EU types), with EU VAT paid vessels , currently do (Chris Rob has been working with an Australian couple who had to do exactly that when returning to Greece from Turkey on their VAT paid but Australian flagged boat that had previously had a DEKPA). The vessel can then stay longer (as in, indefinitely) than the traditional 18 months Temporary Import that non EU VAT paid vessels currently enjoy.

The crux is, as per the thread title, that you, as a non EU citizen, will only be able to enjoy 90 schengen days in the schengen zone, and whatever extra days you can pick up with any residential rights or bilateral agreements that you can avail. As a Kiwi, I have been unable to avail myself of ANY of the so called bilateral agreement Visa days ANYWHERE in the EU. This is not because the country denies that they exist, but more because the individual immigration official doesn't know how to get it from the system. Come back later is usually the response! I did get a Cat D Visa for Greece, which was great, but fell afoul of the 6 months in 12 usage law that Greece has for airplanes and cars, as I was deemed an EU resident in spite of it actually only being a multiple entry/exit Visa. I managed to argue that the vessel was in fact 'out of use' over the winter that we were in a marina. We subsequently cleared out, and cruised elsewhere for a bit.

I understand that Baggywrinkle as an EU citizen does not have the issues that many are worried about and presumably only asked the question out of curiosity.

As a non VAT paid, kiwi in the Med, I welcome the rest of you to my world.

If it helps, Greece's current policy is to treat the TI as a living document that is only enacted when it is on board the boat and the boat is in use. So... my TL that I obtained on June 25th, 2017, is still valid as I have placed the boat in bond at the end of every summer (I am back at work replenishing the cruising kitty). The Basimakopolou FB page has a post with an email from Nafplio Customs explaining exactly that policy, for those who absolutely must have the official account.

I hope that this is of some comfort for some of you.

As Vic has said, many of us colonial's have been doing this merry dance for some time. Why you Brit's wanted to join us is baffling!

PT