Schengen Visa - 90/180 rule

[nortada]

And on that note sorry guy have to leave you just been invited on to another boat for drinks ,

Enjoy, we are off down the pub.?

Understand it is a bit chilly in Blighty - well it is a Bank Holiday weekend??

Little doubt this debate will continue right up to 31/12/20 and beyond.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

You missed the point totally, there no hinding in Malta , Malta are not interested in passport another then to take a look at them , all they interested in is a crew list which they stamp then stamp it back out .
As what the UK will do no one know not even the most knowledgeable person here .

If there is no record of you staying there other than a Maltese stamped crew list then you can hide in Malta can't you? If they start implementing ETIAS, then this avenue of staying in Malta and relying on it not counting towards your 90/180 days will no longer work?

.... and while it is true no-one can be certain what will happen between now and 31.12.2020, anyone making plans would be wise to assume 3rd country status for the UK including the 90/180 Schengen rule would they not?

 

[Ningaloo]

I don't understand why everyone says we don't know what will happen post 31/12/20.
We know what the current legislation is for third country and unless Boris does an almighty U turn (ok, I know he's done a dozen or more since March, but in my opinion abandoning Brexit isn't going to happen) that legislation will apply to UK citizens.
So no more casual channel crossings - you will have to go to an official port of entry.
Lots of paperwork, record keeping and standing in queues to check in and out of Schengen areas. And either 90 day limit or risk being deported.

 

[nortada]

I don't understand why everyone says we don't know what will happen post 31/12/20.
We know what the current legislation is for third country and unless Boris does an almighty U turn (ok, I know he's done a dozen or more since March, but in my opinion abandoning Brexit isn't going to happen) that legislation will apply to UK citizens.
So no more casual channel crossings - you will have to go to an official port of entry.
Lots of paperwork, record keeping and standing in queues to check in and out of Schengen areas. And either 90 day limit or risk being deported.

Think most, if not all, in this debate are well aware of the Schengen Rules but not so sure of individual countries requirements or interpritation of the rules after 31/12/20.

As to 'no more casual channel crossings - you will have to go to an official port of entry. Lots of paperwork, record keeping and standing in queues to check in and out of Schengen areas. And either 90 day limit or risk being deported', clearly your persception is based on cross channel trips and air-travel but accross the EU it could be very different.

These discussions are an excellent way of sharing knowlwdge.

We will just have to wait and see.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I don't understand why everyone says we don't know what will happen post 31/12/20.
We know what the current legislation is for third country and unless Boris does an almighty U turn (ok, I know he's done a dozen or more since March, but in my opinion abandoning Brexit isn't going to happen) that legislation will apply to UK citizens.
So no more casual channel crossings - you will have to go to an official port of entry.
Lots of paperwork, record keeping and standing in queues to check in and out of Schengen areas. And either 90 day limit or risk being deported.

Good morning to you all hope everyone didn't have night mares of being banned from Europe

for them of us who been around and sailing before the EU there was never a time when we had to queue fill lots of form and keep any record it was a simple matter of posting a single sheet of paper in the custom box before leave and at the other end of the trip ,
when checking into a marina because they where in them days cheap enough fill in passport number and where you came from , I doubt for channel crossing it going to be much different.

For us cruisers if could very well be different once we leave , but what cruiser are good at is sorting out problems as and when they arrive it not a matter of burning their heads in the sand more that for some taken up residency in another country isn't a option because of the problem it would bring in their personally life's .

We have a young family anchored 100 mts from us , they decided they would take up Italian residency only to be told that the marina address was not listed correctly, the marina then when through to route to sort that out , next they where told they would need an agent to deal with it all for them at a cost of around €500 which they was happy to pay , when the agent looked into it and realised they lived on a boat they where informed the boat would have to be under Italian flag they had to pay a tax each year for they boat as all Italian boats have too and possible depending on the skipper license and boat size they may only be able to sail X miles off shore , so they binned the idea . Yes they could go to Greece or Portugal and start again , but they come to the conclusion they want to cruise and if the shit hit the fan for the sake of a few hundred miles they can be in a non Europe country .
I my self as many know or may know been at this cruising lark for many years , so I too not buring my head in any sand I believe there going to be away around this one way or another ETIAS or no ETIAS .
What really make me laught is for example of one brit we know who has got Italian residency who goes on and on about if people Bend the rule and get caught they be ban and fined and there's he is with a boat under the red duster when clearly it should be under Italian flag as an Italian residence or some here who at any second will fly back to the UK to get NHS treatment when it suite them or the once who open a bank account in the UK and when ask the question if they are resident in any country answer no .
The fact is nearly everyone bend the rules when it suite them .
Now it's 34c to day and rather then carry on a discussion that at the of the day isn't going to make a half penny different to the out come I'm off for a nice swim , follow by breakfast and then another swim before working on one of my solar panel to see why it's packed up.

Before leaving , I will say .
What I do agree with is for them who can easily get residency in a courty that they spend most of there time in should do so .

 

[Tony Cross]

TBH I think that the issue of how strictly the various EU countries will impose the 90/180 day rule on cruisers depends in large part on whether a deal is agreed in the next few weeks. If there is a deal and the UK remains on 'friendly' terms with the EU I'd suspect countries would be prepared to be more lenient towards UK residents cruising in EU waters. If however there is no deal, and especially if the blame-game then starts in full flow, resulting in an acrimonious divorce then I would not be at all surprised to find EU countries being pretty strict with UK nationals cruising in EU waters - and who could blame them?

 

[nortada]

Is it possible to hold dual Italian/UK residency

 

[nortada]

TBH I think that the issue of how strictly the various EU countries will impose the 90/180 day rule on cruisers depends in large part on whether a deal is agreed in the next few weeks. If there is a deal and the UK remains on 'friendly' terms with the EU I'd suspect countries would be prepared to be more lenient towards UK residents cruising in EU waters. If however there is no deal, and especially if the blame-game then starts in full flow, resulting in an acrimonious divorce then I would not be at all surprised to find EU countries being pretty strict with UK nationals cruising in EU waters - and who could blame them?

I think, whatever the agreements reached, Schengen and when it arrives, ETIAS, will be applied universally across the EU.

What could continue to vary will be the ease to get residency in various EU countries.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Good morning to you all hope everyone didn't have night mares of being banned from Europe

for them of us who been around and sailing before the EU there was never a time when we had to queue fill lots of form and keep any record it was a simple matter of posting a single sheet of paper in the custom box before leave and at the other end of the trip ,
when checking into a marina because they where in them days cheap enough fill in passport number and where you came from , I doubt for channel crossing it going to be much different.

For us cruisers if could very well be different once we leave , but what cruiser are good at is sorting out problems as and when they arrive it not a matter of burning their heads in the sand more that for some taken up residency in another country isn't a option because of the problem it would bring in their personally life's .

We have a young family anchored 100 mts from us , they decided they would take up Italian residency only to be told that the marina address was not listed correctly, the marina then when through to route to sort that out , next they where told they would need an agent to deal with it all for them at a cost of around €500 which they was happy to pay , when the agent looked into it and realised they lived on a boat they where informed the boat would have to be under Italian flag they had to pay a tax each year for they boat as all Italian boats have too and possible depending on the skipper license and boat size they may only be able to sail X miles off shore , so they binned the idea . Yes they could go to Greece or Portugal and start again , but they come to the conclusion they want to cruise and if the shit hit the fan for the sake of a few hundred miles they can be in a non Europe country .
I my self as many know or may know been at this cruising lark for many years , so I too not buring my head in any sand I believe there going to be away around this one way or another ETIAS or no ETIAS .
What really make me laught is for example of one brit we know who has got Italian residency who goes on and on about if people Bend the rule and get caught they be ban and fined and there's he is with a boat under the red duster when clearly it should be under Italian flag as an Italian residence or some here who at any second will fly back to the UK to get NHS treatment when it suite them or the once who open a bank account in the UK and when ask the question if they are resident in any country answer no .
The fact is nearly everyone bend the rules when it suite them .
Now it's 34c to day and rather then carry on a discussion that at the of the day isn't going to make a half penny different to the out come I'm off for a nice swim , follow by breakfast and then another swim before working on one of my solar panel to see why it's packed up.

Before leaving , I will say .
What I do agree with is for them who can easily get residency in a courty that they spend most of there time in should do so .

In the days before the EU there were far fewer people doing it, and I think that is what will cause the major differences - that and the IT situation now with cross-referenced databases and online checks/applications.

Today we have hoards of boats making their way around the Med, and look at the size of the ARC fleet compared to before the EU. There is simply more traffic, making it necessary to police.

I never had to queue going in and out of Croatia when I was doing it about a decade ago, (before they joined the EU) but the whole process did take time - the passport checks were quite quick, but I needed the temporary import paperwork as Croatian VAT wasn't paid, so there was always the time taken to head to a port of entry, moor up, sit in the transit berth and wait for them to finish the paperwork. As I recall there were fewer Italian boats in Croatia back then too - now the place is crawling with them - in the height of summer places like Mali Losinj are full - get there after 6pm and there are no berths left. It's even worse further south so I have been told.

With all that said, how does the following scenario work? ...

Any Brit with a boat in the EU on 31.12.2020 will have an EU VAT paid boat on the 01.01.2021 .... all well and good - Boat is union goods and can feeely circulate in the EU.

The Brit living on it can`t though, he has 90 days before he has to leave the Schengen area. If he returns to blighty then all is well and good, but what if he takes his boat with him to Turkey for example - should he export it from the EU? Is there such a thing as a temporary export?

If he exports it from the EU, then does he lose his EU VAT paid status? When he returns the boat to the EU can he use returning goods relief as a non-EU citizen or must he do a temporary import?

I am concerned that the 90/180 rule may result in Brits leaving the EU with their boats and ending up losing their EU VAT paid status. Does anyone know if this is the case?

What happens currently to the VAT paid status of an EU boat if an Australian citizen takes it out of the EU and rings it back in again?

 

[nortada]

How does the following scenario work? ...

Any Brit with a boat in the EU on 31.12.2020 will have an EU VAT paid boat on the 01.01.2021 .... all well and good - Boat is union goods and can feeely circulate in the EU.

The Brit living on it can`t though, he has 90 days before he has to leave the Schengen area. If he returns to blighty then all is well and good, but what if he takes his boat with him to Turkey for example - should he export it from the EU? Is there such a thing as a temporary export?

If he exports it from the EU, then does he lose his EU VAT paid status? When he returns the boat to the EU can he use returning goods relief as a non-EU citizen or must he do a temporary import?

I am concerned that the 90/180 rule may result in Brits leaving the EU with their boats and ending up losing their EU VAT paid status. Does anyone know if this is the case?

What happens currently to the VAT paid status of an EU boat if an Australian citizen takes it out of the EU and rings it back in again?

Hi Bags,

Some interesing questions.

This year the ARC should run on old rules. As the some vessels will be British registered and out of the EU on 31/12/20, will they retain a EU VAT status? Whatever, they should be able to return to the UK with no UK VAT liability.

But what for ARC 2021? I expect the organisers will offer advice nearer the time.

Still on the VAT theme, as we know UK boats in the EU on 31/12/20, will retain their EU Vat status but regarding EU VAT status, what happens when they return to the UK?

The scenario I foresee, is folk decide to see the 2021 in a French port, then suitably sobered up they return to the UK. When it comes to subsequent trips to the EU, what will their VAT status be?

Not that this will affect me but I think to expect life will just carry on with business as usual in the New Year could be wishfull thinking.

 

[Graham376]

Still on the VAT theme, as we know UK boats in the EU on 31/12/20, will retain their EU Vat status but regarding EU VAT status, what happens when they return to the UK?

The scenario I foresee, is folk decide to see the 2021 in a French port, then suitably sobered up they return to the UK. When it comes to subsequent trips to the EU, what will their VAT status be?

Not that this will affect me but I think to expect life will just carry on with business as usual in the New Year could be wishfull thinking.

Good question I've not seen asked before. Those who have residence will be able to bring their boats back to EU under RGR but, I have no idea what will happen to status of UK owned, non resident boats/owners as they presumably can't apply for EU RGR. Perhaps a question for EU help line?

P.S. Having given it more thought, I suspect a non resident owned boat leaving the EU may well be treated as an export and subject to the 18 months rule if brought back.

 

[bobgarrett]

So no more casual channel crossings - you will have to go to an official port of entry.
Lots of paperwork, record keeping and standing in queues to check in and out of Schengen areas. And either 90 day limit or risk being deported.

This may not necessarily be the case...

When we were expected to crash out the Cruising Association did some excellent work through their local representatives on the north coast of France with the marinas to the local officialdom (Brittany and Normandy). The result at that time was an acceptance that requiring boats from the UK to enter via a Port of Entry was not going to work. So they announced we would need to declare to the relevant harbour master who would then refer to the local officials to decide on an individual basis whether further declaration would be needed. It was foreseen that only a Schengen form would usually be needed.

Whether this decision by those authorities will be maintained remains to be seen but at present the CA is lobbying through similar routes to ask the EU to give six months. At least is my understanding as a member of the CA.

 

[st599]

The RYA are running an online forum for club committee on this in October. Presumably the results will be disseminated shortly afterwards.

 

[st599]

This may not necessarily be the case...

When we were expected to crash out the Cruising Association did some excellent work through their local representatives on the north coast of France with the marinas to the local officialdom (Brittany and Normandy). The result at that time was an acceptance that requiring boats from the UK to enter via a Port of Entry was not going to work. So they announced we would need to declare to the relevant harbour master who would then refer to the local officials to decide on an individual basis whether further declaration would be needed. It was foreseen that only a Schengen form would usually be needed.

Whether this decision by those authorities will be maintained remains to be seen but at present the CA is lobbying through similar routes to ask the EU to give six months. At least is my understanding as a member of the CA.

The RYA stated that the EU had offered six months visa free if the UK reciprocated. The UK didn't, it went for 6 months with a visa.

 

[GHA]

All this stuff written here about Brexit, I lay money come next year there going to. A way around the problem for us cruisers.

Hope so for the sake of you guys, but why would the EU change the rules which all the other nmon eu countries have to abide by just for one country? Juggling schengen is a constant hassle for US/canadian etc boats, seems a bit optimistic that the the EU will change it just for one country out of all the non EU countries in the world.

 

[nortada]

Good question I've not seen asked before. Those who have residence will be able to bring their boats back to EU under RGR but, I have no idea what will happen to status of UK owned, non resident boats/owners as they presumably can't apply for EU RGR. Perhaps a question for EU help line?

As this situation is unlikely to happen to me, possibly somebody who will be affected might like to pursue it with the EU help line.

 

[nortada]

Hope so for the sake of you guys, but why would the EU change the rules which all the other non eu countries have to abide by just for one country? Juggling schengen is a constant hassle for US/canadian etc boats, seems a bit optimistic that the the EU will change it just for one country out of all the non EU countries in the world.

Those of us who have made the effort to get EU residency should be OK and although only 4 months left it, there is still time for those, with a bit of creative thinking, to jump on board.

For the rest, agree, the UK will be treated like all other non-EU countries.

I find it optimistic in the extreme, that the RYA and CA hope to have a special case negotiated for British pleasure sailors.

As a cynic, for the benefit of their membership, I think these organisations, want to be seen to be doing something.

 

[nortada]

Visas?

ETIAS #93 is the way it is going to go for all so why should sailors expect anything different from all other people from non-EU countries

I anticipate some encouraging warm words from the boating associations but in reality it will not even be on the table with the decision takers who have far bigger issues to deal with - and this was before Covid struck.

 

[Graham376]

Hope so for the sake of you guys, but why would the EU change the rules which all the other nmon eu countries have to abide by just for one country?

I would expect a reciprocal 6 months which is what we've given them. If they don't, then we should reduce to 3 months.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Did some digging and found this ....

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:324:0023:0057:EN:PDF

Articles 4-11 apply to pleasure craft and returned goods relief in the EU. Some interesting rules in there ....