Schengen Visa - 90/180 rule

[nortada]

It doesn't take much of an imagination to conjure up an address but there is no way I would put it in print on here or anywhere else.
Why would I offer my address wbtw is already at full occupancy when you imply your lady to get around it, but fair enough if people want to waste their money and pay for such a simple process let them crack on with it.

We have got people here in Portugal offering to 'resolve your residency problems', for a price.

Residency in Portugal costs €15 per person but I have heard of a case where a 'helper' charged €750 - nice work if you can get it

 

[bobgarrett]

Those of us who have made the effort to get EU residency should be OK and although only 4 months left it, there is still time for those, with a bit of creative thinking, to jump on board.

For the rest, agree, the UK will be treated like all other non-EU countries.

I find it optimistic in the extreme, that the RYA and CA hope to have a special case negotiated for British pleasure sailors.

As a cynic, for the benefit of their membership, I think these organisations, want to be seen to be doing something.

While I understand your scepticism as to what can be achieved and there are limits I think we should be grateful to the Cruising Association which did achieve, through its Honorary Local Representative, the following statement early in 2019 when it was feared we would crash out (this is a translation):

Communication from the General Secretariat for Maritime Affairs in Brittany and the Côtes d’Armor Departmental Coastal and Maritime Directorate​

Those yachts that are planning to call in any marina not designated as a PPF port (Maritime Border Entry Port) have no cause for concern as the following procedure will be adopted:
A yacht should inform the Harbour Master's office by VHF of its arrival. The Harbour Master will then advise the Border Police (PAF) or the Customs authorities as the case may be. These authorities may then decide either to visit the arriving yacht or request those on board to attend the nearest PAF or Custom's office to have their passports stamped.
However, a further relaxing of these measures is expected, and it is probable that passports will not be required to be stamped, in which case the information relayed to the Border Police or Custom’s authorities will be sufficient, and those on board will not need to do anything further.
It is absolutely necessary to ensure that the existing border posts are not overwhelmed by the demand.

Of course this does not address the 90/180 nor the 18 month rule but does achieve something and I hope it is still the case in 2021.

 

[nortada]

While I understand your scepticism as to what can be achieved and there are limits I think we should be grateful to the Cruising Association which did achieve, through its Honorary Local Representative, the following statement early in 2019 when it was feared we would crash out (this is a translation):

Communication from the General Secretariat for Maritime Affairs in Brittany and the Côtes d’Armor Departmental Coastal and Maritime Directorate​

Those yachts that are planning to call in any marina not designated as a PPF port (Maritime Border Entry Port) have no cause for concern as the following procedure will be adopted:
A yacht should inform the Harbour Master's office by VHF of its arrival. The Harbour Master will then advise the Border Police (PAF) or the Customs authorities as the case may be. These authorities may then decide either to visit the arriving yacht or request those on board to attend the nearest PAF or Custom's office to have their passports stamped.
However, a further relaxing of these measures is expected, and it is probable that passports will not be required to be stamped, in which case the information relayed to the Border Police or Custom’s authorities will be sufficient, and those on board will not need to do anything further.
It is absolutely necessary to ensure that the existing border posts are not overwhelmed by the demand.

Of course this does not address the 90/180 nor the 18 month rule but does achieve something and I hope it is still the case in 2021.

Good to hear. I would expect the same deal in 2021. After all Covid has made the economic imperatives everywhere much more pressing an this could have a large impact in all aspects of overseas travel. To put it bluntly, they want your money!

Is there a list of PPF ports available?

 

[JumbleDuck]

In a couple of years or so, there will be 2 changes, ETIAS will be up and running and Brits will be third country citizens.

One aim of ETIAS will be to keep better control on third country citizens.

So, unless Brits have residency in an EU country, them swanning around from EU country to EU country, will be a thing of the past and even those with residency could have their freedom of movement curtailed.

I thought ETIAS only applied to crossings into and out of the Schengen Zone, and not travel between Schengen Zone countries. Most of the border crossings withing Schengen I have used of late have been unmarked and on minor roads, so no mechanism to check anything.

 

[nortada]

I thought ETIAS only applied to crossings into and out of the Schengen Zone, and not travel between Schengen Zone countries. Most of the border crossings withing Schengen I have used of late have been unmarked and on minor roads, so no mechanism to check anything.

Correct. I am not sure that anybody has suggested anything different.

When your in, your in, when your not your out.

 

[bobgarrett]

Is there a list of PPF ports available?

Generally it is the active ferry ports so Roscoff, St Malo, Carteret, Cherbourg, Ouistreham, Dieppe, Calais, Dunkirk.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I thought ETIAS only applied to crossings into and out of the Schengen Zone, and not travel between Schengen Zone countries. Most of the border crossings withing Schengen I have used of late have been unmarked and on minor roads, so no mechanism to check anything.

It does ... but now all the countries in the Schengen zone will be linked to one system ... your Entry and Exit dates from the Schengen zone will now all be recorded centrally and be available at all Schengen borders and will form part of entry and exit checks. It doesn't now matter if you cross internal borders or exit from a different country where you entered. At every Schengen border your status will be checked. It also means the system can flag you as overstaying as soon as the clock ticks over 90 days without an exit being registered.

To give an example, you try to sneak back to Blighty on your own yacht without "checking out" of the last EU country you were in. Your Schengen clock keeps ticking, you run over 90 days, and the next time you attempt to book travel to Europe you get flagged and refused entry.

ETIAS - European Travel Information and Authorisation System

Looks like ETIAS will only become mandatory in 2022 though.

ETIAS Travel Authorization for Britons Won’t Be Mandatory in 2021 – May Be Postponed to 2023 - SchengenVisaInfo.com

 

[nortada]

Generally it is the active ferry ports so Roscoff, St Malo, Carteret, Cherbourg, Ouistreham, Dieppe, Calais, Dunkirk.

Ta.

 

[st599]

It does ... but now all the countries in the Schengen zone will be linked to one system ... your Entry and Exit dates from the Schengen zone will now all be recorded centrally and be available at all Schengen borders and will form part of entry and exit checks. It doesn't now matter if you cross internal borders or exit from a different country where you entered. At every Schengen border your status will be checked. It also means the system can flag you as overstaying as soon as the clock ticks over 90 days without an exit being registered.

To give an example, you try to sneak back to Blighty on your own yacht without "checking out" of the last EU country you were in. Your Schengen clock keeps ticking, you run over 90 days, and the next time you attempt to book travel to Europe you get flagged and refused entry.

ETIAS - European Travel Information and Authorisation System

Looks like ETIAS will only become mandatory in 2022 though.

ETIAS Travel Authorization for Britons Won’t Be Mandatory in 2021 – May Be Postponed to 2023 - SchengenVisaInfo.com

Not even being sneaky. I quite often pop over to France on a ferry, board a yacht and sail back. I will need to check out of Schengen, but that will presumably need a trip to a Port of Entry.

 

[st599]

Ta.

Some of those aren't ports of entry. On the channel you have:

• Caen-Ouistreham,
• Calais,
• Cherbourg,
• Dieppe,
• Dunkirk,
• Le Havre,
• Roscoff,
• St Malo

And on the Atlantic:

• Brest,
• Gironde Estuary & Bordeaux,
• Hendaye-Behobie,
• La Rochelle,
• La Trinite-sur-Mer,
• Les Sables d’Olonne,
• Lorient,
• Nantes,
• St Nazaire

(We have a club entry for the Tour des Ports moved by a year, so we're studying the rules)

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Not even being sneaky. I quite often pop over to France on a ferry, board a yacht and sail back. I will need to check out of Schengen, but that will presumably need a trip to a Port of Entry.

I think that will be required, question is how easy will it be? ... Will they come up with more options for checking out of France? or will Yachts and their occupants be required to exit via an existing Port of Entry?
With leaving the customs union, there are also tax and import/export implications for the yacht as well.

 

[nortada]

All reminds me of a few years ago in Cyprus.

Went to cross from south to north only to be told that we had not left the north for over a year, so had over stayed our visa and were in big poo. The Greek Cypriots intended to confiscate our British passports.?

I pointed out that as we were in the south going north, clearly we had mastered the art of being in 2 places at the same time️

(We had been in the north the previous year but had booked from north to south in the usual way - handing in our visas and been back to the UK for most of the year).

Clearly, the system had failed and we were in no-mans land (well I was, as Memshab had already wandered into the north (without her passport, which was being held by the south officials) and was looking at goods in the Turkish gift shop.

The Turkish Cypriots were totally relaxed about the whole thing, which was fortunate, as they were toting guns. The Greeks weren’t.

By contrast, the Greek Cypriots, were anything but relaxed and were refusing to return our passports so I produced my military ID and an out of date NATO Travel Order, which I happened to be carrying. The Greek Cypriots saw the NATO Travel Order authorised me to carry weapons so she wanted to see my weapon (she was a good looker?) and couldn’t grasp that being authorised didn’t mean I was. Didn’t notice the NATO Travel Order was was out of date.

By now the queue was enormous (but fortunately good natured) so I suggested why didn’t the south generate a visa, smug the dates, give it to the north, who could stamp it, smug the dates again and give it back to the south, who would then issue a new visa with today’s date.

This was done, our passports returned and I progressed into the north to see how much damage Memshab had done to my wallet during the delay.

Happy days, but was this good trade training for things to come?

 

[nortada]

Some of those aren't ports of entry. On the channel you have:

• Caen-Ouistreham,
• Calais,
• Cherbourg,
• Dieppe,
• Dunkirk,
• Le Havre,
• Roscoff,
• St Malo

And on the Atlantic:

• Brest,
• Gironde Estuary & Bordeaux,
• Hendaye-Behobie,
• La Rochelle,
• La Trinite-sur-Mer,
• Les Sables d’Olonne,
• Lorient,
• Nantes,
• St Nazaire

(We have a club entry for the Tour des Ports moved by a year, so we're studying the rules)

What is the point of having ports that aren’t Ports of Entry on the list

Now EU residency would solve all of your potential problems.?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

What is the point of having ports that aren’t Ports of Entry on the list

Now EU residency would solve all of your potential problems.?

Be interesting to know how residency is recorded in ETIAS - All foreign nationals, resident or not, will have to go through the same passport/travel checks I would imagine.

My experience of non-EU nationals going through Schengen borders is that they need to carry proof of residence with them and present it with their passports - ETIAS checks mus also take residency into account. Especially important if residency is cancelled or expires for any reason - they'll want to flag VISA/Residency overstayers I guess.

 

[st599]

What is the point of having ports that aren’t Ports of Entry on the list

Now EU residency would solve all of your potential problems.?

The list the other chap gave had non-POE listed.

Residency doesn't solve my problem as I travel all over the EU for work and don't spend the requisite time in a country. I already have an e-residency for the company and the benefits of a Euro bank account.

 

[nortada]

Be interesting to know how residency is recorded in ETIAS - All foreign nationals, resident or not, will have to go through the same passport/travel checks I would imagine.

My experience of non-EU nationals going through Schengen borders is that they need to carry proof of residence with them and present it with their passports - ETIAS checks mus also take residency into account. Especially important if residency is cancelled or expires for any reason - they'll want to flag VISA/Residency overstayers I guess.

By non-EU National no you mean non-EU Resident

Proof of residence, I would have thought your residency permit would establish this, rather than a brerthing contract in the case of we residents a float.

I anticipate, entering your country of residence, in your case Germany could be rather different to entering a third country, say France. Of course, once you have entered there should be no more checks, until you come to leave the Schengen Zone.

As I understand it, ETIAS has yet to go live so have yet to see how it will work. 2022 could be interesting so I will just transit between UK and Portugal but of course entering/departing any harbour/marina could be classed as entering/leaving the Schengen Zone.

Note to self, avoid Faro airport during the school holidays, unless they continue use their regular technique of just waving everybody through, when life gets too busy.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

By non-EU National no you mean non-EU Resident

Proof of residence, I would have thought your residency permit would establish this, rather than a brerthing contract in the case of we residents a float.

I anticipate, entering your country of residence, in your case Germany could be rather different to entering a third country, say France. Of course, once you have entered there should be no more checks, until you come to leave the Schengen Zone.

As I understand it, ETIAS has yet to go live so have yet to see how it will work. 2022 could be interesting so I will just transit between UK and Portugal but of course entering/departing any harbour/marina could be classed as entering/leaving the Schengen Zone.

Note to self, avoid Faro airport during the school holidays, unless they continue use their regular technique of just waving everybody through, when life gets too busy.

By non-EU national I mean someone who is not a citizen of an EU country, like an US, Canadian or, next year, a UK Passport holder and therefore has no FoM through Citizenship.

By Resident, I mean a non-EU national who has been granted residency in an EU country. Proof of this residency is the card or document issued by the country that granted residency.

My American friend has to carry her German issued "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" (residency permit) with her Passport all the time (in Germany) and it needs to be presented at every Schengen border crossing

 

[Mistroma]

I think that most of the "fun" or opportunities for errors will be when leaving the EU. I mentioned in post #58 that even EU citizens have problems if travelling with family members who aren't EU citizens.

Plenty of evidence from a couple of years ago.
https://ecas.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/ECAS-Study-on-Freedom-of-Movement-in-the-EU.pdf

I imagine there will be a lot more scope when UK citizens join the ranks of non-EU citizens. Bound to run into some official who doesn't understand rules relating to "residency permit", "non-EU spouse" and so on. All you can do is take as many simple steps as you can to avoid possible issues.

I'm a bit like Vic in avoiding officials whenever possible (e.g. Never visit PP unless you need to get something stamped or you are ordered to go). We managed all of Spain, France and mainland Italy without any problems. Still managed to have Carabineri on Elba trying to hold our documents and issue a fine for an imaginary infringement (didn't work). However, I still applied for an Irish passport and hoping to get Greek residency this year. It just seems sensible to take any relatively cheap steps to minimise issues.

 

[nortada]

By non-EU national I mean someone who is not a citizen of an EU country, like an US, Canadian or, next year, a UK Passport holder and therefore has no FoM through Citizenship.

By Resident, I mean a non-EU national who has been granted residency in an EU country. Proof of this residency is the card or document issued by the country that granted residency.

My American friend has to carry her German issued "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" (residency permit) with her Passport all the time (in Germany) and it needs to be presented at every Schengen border crossing

Thanks for your clarification, I expect British EU residents will be required to carry their passport and residents permit when entering and leaving the Schengen Zone.

In Portugal everybody is required to carry proof of identity at all times (especially when driving). All Portuguese have an identity card but of course, Brits don’t so we are supposed to carry our passports at all times. Folk are wondering if the new biometric permit will meet the ID requirement so we will no longer have to carry our passports.

Different topic, recently we have had a British friend visiting, who has worked in Berlin for a number of years and speaks German. In the future she intends to relocate from Germany to Portugal, where she could continue to work for the same company that not German but located in Berlin, so during her stay, she decided to get Portuguese residency.

It took 2 days start to finish and she was amazed how easy it was to get residency in Portugal, compared with Germany.

Point is, it just highlights how differently countries process residency and confirmed once again that residency is a very national thing.

 

[bobgarrett]

Some of those aren't ports of entry. On the channel you have:

• Caen-Ouistreham,
• Calais,
• Cherbourg,
• Dieppe,
• Dunkirk,
• Le Havre,
• Roscoff,
• St Malo

And on the Atlantic:

• Brest,
• Gironde Estuary & Bordeaux,
• Hendaye-Behobie,
• La Rochelle,
• La Trinite-sur-Mer,
• Les Sables d’Olonne,
• Lorient,
• Nantes,
• St Nazaire

(We have a club entry for the Tour des Ports moved by a year, so we're studying the rules)

I forget le havre but which is not? If you are thinking Carteret check again!