Schengen Visa - 90/180 rule

[Ningaloo]

It is my understanding that the 180/90 Schengen rule is not even in the negotiations.

I don't believe there are ANY exemptions to the 90/180 limit for tourists of ANY non EU nationality. Zero chance of UK being granted this.
Some nationalities can request a stay in a single country beyond 90 days (as an Aussie I can get a visa to stay in France) but this does not give you any additional stay in the rest of Schengen.

 

[Tony Cross]

Unfortunately even with residency status in an EU27 country you are still limited to 90/180 in the other Schengen countries. So the locals are right.

Ah, my misunderstanding. I hadn't realised that the question about the 90/180 day rule related to countries other than Greece. Apologies.

 

[Kelpie]

Seriously? This was voted for almost 4 years ago. How could anyone interested in keeping a boat in EU27 not be aware of this by now!

It was news to me. But then again I've never been planning to stay long term in Schengen.
I do however want to follow the traditional (i.e. safest) Atlantic circuit which a 90 day limit completely screws up.

 

[Sea Devil]

I don't believe there are ANY exemptions to the 90/180 limit for tourists of ANY non EU nationality. Zero chance of UK being granted this.
Some nationalities can request a stay in a single country beyond 90 days (as an Aussie I can get a visa to stay in France) but this does not give you any additional stay in the rest of Schengen.

It is possible to get a 180 day visa to stay in one specific EU country. It does involve a trip to the consulate of the country you wish to visit and has a cost of around 150 euro as well as considerable paperwork but it does as you say only allow extended stay in one particular country not the entire EU

 

[nortada]

Nortada - You are correct, but lets put down the exact words from the Union.
"Any vessels, currently EU Vat paid, and in UK Customs Territories on 31st December will become UK Vat Paid.
It follows that any vessel anywhere else in the world with EU VAT paid will retain EU Vat status. PROVIDED that they are re-imported to the EU by the exporting owner, that there have been no material changes to the vessel, and that the VESSEL HAS NOT BEEN OUT OF THE EU (EXPORTED) FOR MORE THAN 3 YEARS.

Thanks for the clarification.

I was rather hoping to steer this thread back to the OP's request, rather than dive deeper into the VAT issue.?

 

[BurnitBlue]

A quick note about 'obtaining residency' in another EU country. If you read the small print you'll find that in order for it to remain valid you have to be resident in that country. I'm not sure what the rules are regarding how long you have to be there and how often you can leave, but residency is not a 'flag of convenience' - it's a declaration of residence.

Tony Cross is spot on. Residency has rules depending on reciprical agreements. I am resident in Sweden and the rule regarding minimum time is same as UK at the magical 183 day. This is to stop people from being resident in more than one country in a given year. As it stands I am not a resident of UK so NHS as well as SSR is out of bounds for me. I must reside in Sweden for 183 days to maintain this situation. This also means that the Swedish tax office can tax my pension as UK does not because it is below the threshhold in UK but not in Sweden. Some of Nelson's blind eye can be OK but only until a situation developes where exact legal definitions can be enforced to someones advantage. An example is with a big insurance claim where the insurance company take note that a person cannot be resident in two countries so the claiment must have told a lie to claim SSR status. There are many issues with tax and health care and social benifits. It all depends on the individual country and their treaties and reciprical aggreements with other independant countries. I do believe though that the 183 rule is an EU one. Be carefull.

 

[syvictoria]

It is possible to get a 180 day visa to stay in one specific EU country. It does involve a trip to the consulate of the country you wish to visit and has a cost of around 150 euro as well as considerable paperwork but it does as you say only allow extended stay in one particular country not the entire EU

Are you able to provide any links? Is this a generic EU offering, or do countries differ in their individual requirements? I did Google yesterday after your similar post, but I couldn't really find any concrete information.

 

[syvictoria]

Thanks for the clarification.

I was rather hoping to steer this thread back to the OP's request, rather than dive deeper into the VAT issue.?

What, by asking questions yourself about VAT...!!! (post #17)

We're all trying to work through this situation (Brexit) coming from different starting points, and everyone here has either genuine concerns/worries or is genuinely trying to help fellow cruisers/want-to-be cruisers. The two problems (person and boat - 90/180 and VAT) are different, yes, but many will be affected by both and so the two problems inevitably become linked when it comes to future planning.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I don't believe there are ANY exemptions to the 90/180 limit for tourists of ANY non EU nationality. Zero chance of UK being granted this.
Some nationalities can request a stay in a single country beyond 90 days (as an Aussie I can get a visa to stay in France) but this does not give you any additional stay in the rest of Schengen.

That is also my understanding, getting residency or an extended visa in a Schengen country doesn't affect the 90/180 rule in the remaining 25 countries. So while someone may get a visa allowing 6 months stay in Greece, they will still be subject to the 90/180 rule in all other Schengen states.

Then there is ETIAS ... ETIAS was brought in to better monitor and control travel of 3rd country citizens in the Schengen area, obviously, by leaving the EU, the UK becomes a 3rd country and its citizens will be subject to ETIAS - in return the UK will be subjecting EU citizens to their ETA system. The only thing that is certain is that there will be more rules governing UK citizens travelling in the Schengen area than there were before and Europeans wanting to visit the UK will have to meet the requirements of the UKs ETA system.

IMO, the EU is unlikely to grant the UK anything beyond any other trusted 3rd country which also qualifies for visa waivers for short stays - basically because the value of freedom to travel as a tourist in 26 different European countries far outweighs the freedom to travel in one - the UK - so no matter what the UK offers EU citizens, the EU is unlikely to reciprocate - it is more likely to just transfer the UK to the list of countries with visa waiver access to Schengen under the existing system and existing 90/180 day rules. I would not hold out for some unicorn deal that gives UK tourists advantageous access to the Schengen area.

With 38 votes pro, eight against and three abstentions the LIBE committee showed their support that once the UK finally leaves the EU, its citizens should be granted a Schengen Visa waiver given that the UK reciprocates the move.

The UK had also shown a positive approach towards the issue. Yet, the ruling party has warned that it is looking forward to introducing a new scheme that would make it mandatory for travelers from the EU to apply for travel authorizations online before they travel to the UK, upon the end of the transitional period.

The Tories want the European Union nationals to apply online for an Electronic Travel Authorization (ETA), before they travel to the UK in the future, in a bid of what they say enabling the UK taking control of its own borders.

On the other hand, the European Union has announced a few years back the introduction of an ETIAS, which stands for the European Travel Information and Authorization System, and will come into force by January 2023.

The ETIAS be mandatory for the nationals of over 60 world countries that so far have been eligible to enter the Schengen Area visa-free for short-term stays, including Britons.

EU-UK Future Relations Draft Resolution Foresees Reciprocal Visa-Free Entry for Short-Stays - SchengenVisaInfo.com

 

[nortada]

What, by asking questions yourself about VAT...!!! (post #17)

We're all trying to work through this situation (Brexit) coming from different starting points, and everyone here has either genuine concerns/worries or is genuinely trying to help fellow cruisers/want-to-be cruisers. The two problems (person and boat - 90/180 and VAT) are different, yes, but many will be affected by both and so the two problems inevitably become linked when it comes to future planning.

And from continuing experience, confusion will reign.

All could become apparent after 31/12/20, when we will be out and the opportunity to take advantage of the Transition Period gone.???

 

[nortada]

That is also my understanding, getting residency or an extended visa in a Schengen country doesn't affect the 90/180 rule in the remaining 25 countries. So while someone may get a visa allowing 6 months stay in Greece, they will still be subject to the 90/180 rule in all other Schengen states.

Then there is ETIAS ... ETIAS was brought in to better monitor and control travel of 3rd country citizens in the Schengen area, obviously, by leaving the EU, the UK becomes a 3rd country and its citizens will be subject to ETIAS - in return the UK will be subjecting EU citizens to their ETA system. The only thing that is certain is that there will be more rules governing UK citizens travelling in the Schengen area than there were before and Europeans wanting to visit the UK will have to meet the requirements of the UKs ETA system.

IMO, the EU is unlikely to grant the UK anything beyond any other trusted 3rd country which also qualifies for visa waivers for short stays - basically because the value of freedom to travel as a tourist in 26 different European countries far outweighs the freedom to travel in one - the UK - so no matter what the UK offers EU citizens, the EU is unlikely to reciprocate - it is more likely to just transfer the UK to the list of countries with visa waiver access to Schengen under the existing system and existing 90/180 day rules. I would not hold out for some unicorn deal that gives UK tourists advantageous access to the Schengen area.

EU-UK Future Relations Draft Resolution Foresees Reciprocal Visa-Free Entry for Short-Stays - SchengenVisaInfo.com

Agree, and mine.

Getting an extended visa is a bit like limited residence in that country. Schengen 90/180 will still apply elsewhere.

I believe post 2020, unless countries enter into bilateral agreements and make residency easy for Brits, Brits keeping their boats in the EU or visiting for longer than 90 days will dwindle and largely die out.

But any EU country that makes residency easy for Brits will sweep up on this market at the cost to the other EU States.

Could be interesting times ahead.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

There are a number of ways to travel in the EU as a British citizen assuming the UK moves to third country status without any further agreement. .....

As a tourist (UK citizen).

People: As a tourist from the UK with UK citizenship and no residency or citizenship of any other EU country you can travel in the Schengen area with a Schengen Visa Waiver. It is effectively the same as a Type C, (Short Stay) multiple entry visa and is valid for tourism and recreation, business purposes, visiting friends or family, cultural and sporting events, airport and seafaring transit visits, official visits, medical treatment, short-term study, and research purposes. This means the 90/180 rule applies in every Schengen state visited.

If eligible, you can apply for a Type D Schengen visa (or national long-stay visa). It is mandatory for any foreigner wishing to study, work or live in a Schengen country for longer than 90 days (up to 1 year). It allows its holder to travel and stay in the Schengen area outside of the originally chosen Schengen country for periods of 90 days maximum over 180 days and during the entire validity period of their visa.
The national visa or type D visa is issued by the consular authorities of the intended Schengen country in accordance with national legislation. Therefore it is necessary to contact the services of the country to know the different conditions and formalities that need to be met. Under certain conditions it can be granted as either a single or a multiple-entry Long-stay visa.

You will additionally need travel health insurence.

Boat: A Boat from the UK, owned by a UK citizen, with no residency or citizenship in any EU country can enter the EU under Temporary Admission and avoid VAT/Import duties. It can stay up to 18 months maximum under this arrangement and must be exported and imported to reset the clock - takes one day. On returning to the UK it can re-gain its UK VAT paid status by claiming Returning Goods Relief subject to the RTR rules issued by the inland revenue. A VAT paid Boat from the UK, owned by a UK citizen, with no residency or citizenship in any EU country which is in the EU overnight on the 31.12.2020 will become EU goods and can stay indefinitely in the EU.

As a resident of an EU country (UK citizen).

People: As a resident of an EU country you usually have to reside there for at least 183 days per year and have your major economic interests there - paying tax etc. Residency is granted on a country by country basis subject to the individual countries rules - there are no EU rules on residency as it is up to the sovereign states to decide who they grant it to and under what criteria. If you have residency in a Schengen country then the rules concerning your residency overrule the Schengen 90/180 rules and you can stay in that country as long as your residency allows. In all other Schengen countries, the 90/180 rules apply as no individual EU country is able to grant unlimited access to the Schengen area to non-EU citizens.

Boat: As a resident in the EU you will not be eligible for Temporary Admission and will need to import your posessions into your country of residence under their conditions. If you already have a boat in the EU with VAT paid and intend to remain resident in the EU then as long as it is in the EU on the night of 31.12.2020 then it will become EU goods with VAT paid and will be free to circulte in the EU indefinately.

As a citizen of an EU country (Dual Citizenship).

People: You are free to live, work and travel in the entire Schengen area without restriction or time limit other than being able to support yourself for the first 3 months in a new country.

Boats: As an EU citizen you will not be eligible for Temporary Admission in the EU (or the UK if you have dual citizenship), and must import any possessions outside the EU/UK according to the rules of the country of import. If your boat happens to be in the UK on 31.12.2020 then it can be brought to the EU under the EU equivalent of Returning Goods Relief dependent on your circumstances and the country of import.

AXA has a great site for Schengen info ...

What is a Schengen visa ? Detailed guide on visa for Europe

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Agree, and mine.

Getting an extended visa is a bit like limited residence in that country. Schengen 90/180 will still apply elsewhere.

I believe post 2020, unless countries enter into bilateral agreements and make residency easy for Brits, Brits keeping their boats in the EU or visiting for longer than 90 days will dwindle and largely die out.

But any EU country that makes residency easy for Brits will sweep up on this market at the cost to the other EU States.

Could be interesting times ahead.

To a large extent this has already been done with dual taxation agreements etc. I think the whole purpose of offering residency is the economic benefit to the country - due to existing dual taxation legislation between european countries, only one of them will be able to tax you, and that will be your country of residence - meaning if it is not the UK then you will lose access to UK services like NHS (no longer ordinarily resident in the UK), you will lose your vote in the UK after 5 years and also lose access to the SSR (which might be important to some here).

AFAIK multiple residencies does exist as a concept but residency goes hand-in-hand with taxation so could turn out very costly.

One other thing to think very carefully about is inheritance law/tax and capital gains tax in your chosen country of residence. Germany is very different to the UK for example with regards to capital gains and inheritance, not to mention probate. Anyone planning residency abroad really needs to have their ducks in a row concerning these issues.

 

[nortada]

Dual tax agreements are not the same as Residency. I do not agree that the whole purpose of offering residency is the economic benefit to a country.

Many people, who enjoy the dual tax agreement own property in Portugal. They rent this property out in Portugal and pay tax on this income in Portugal but until recently were not Portuguese residents and paid tax on other income (pensions) to the UK, which they will continue to do.

There is a long standing dual taxation treaty between the UK and Portugal, which means income can be taxed in either country but not both but income earned in Portugal will be taxed in Portugal. One oddity is that UK government pensions (but not the State Pension) are always taxed in the UK.

Dual residence (Portugal/UK) is not a concept but a reality that has existed to the benefit of both countries for many years, can't see how Brexit will change anything.

Liability for inheritance tax is it's own minefield but it is my understanding that unless you cut all ties with UK and formally renounce your domicility in favour of another country and so become a nom-dom, your estate world-wide, will continue to be liable for UK IHT (40% on everything over £325,000 but there is a further concession for the family home). You can only be a domicile of a single country.

A friend who is a British passport holder, who has German residency has applied for Portuguese residency and it interesting to hear the huge differences between German and Portuguese residency. It appears that getting residency in Germany is a far harder path to travel.

This highlights that residency is a national, not an EU issue. Unlike Freedom of Movement and Schengen which are EU-wide issues.

One safety valve with Portuguese residence is that it can be renounced at a stroke and you return to your former status. But why would you renounce it, even on your death-bed?

 

[Graham376]

AFAIK multiple residencies does exist as a concept but residency goes hand-in-hand with taxation so could turn out very costly.

One other thing to think very carefully about is inheritance law/tax and capital gains tax in your chosen country of residence. Germany is very different to the UK for example with regards to capital gains and inheritance, not to mention probate. Anyone planning residency abroad really needs to have their ducks in a row concerning these issues.

UK allows dual residency and so does Portugal and only need to be taxed in one. Different situation if formally immigrating as it then becomes only country of residence.

As far as wills are concerned, folks need to read up on what is commonly known as Brussels 4 agreement, allowing a declaration to be made stipulating under which country's law the estate is to be handled. Although the UK didn't sign up to it, if the country you reside in did, then it works.

 

[newtothis]

Some nationalities can request a stay in a single country beyond 90 days (as an Aussie I can get a visa to stay in France) but this does not give you any additional stay in the rest of Schengen.

Do you know the practicalities of this? I have an NZ passport, which allows extended stays too, but I don't know how it works. Can you do 90 in a Schengen country, plus 90 in one of the countries with which your government has an direct deal with? I doubt it works like that but that would allow a summer in the Med.

 

[Koeketiene]

Do you know the practicalities of this? I have an NZ passport, which allows extended stays too, but I don't know how it works. Can you do 90 in a Schengen country, plus 90 in one of the countries with which your government has an direct deal with? I doubt it works like that but that would allow a summer in the Med.

This might very well work (for now).
There are loopholes everywhere.

There won't be full harmonization of Schengen visa rules till the ETIAS system comes on-line 01/01/2022.

ETIAS Form - Application and registration online process

 

[Mistroma]

Extended cruising from country to country is going to become more difficult unless everyone is a citizen of the EU.

My own plan is to get residency in Greece this year for myself and my wife. I hope that will by-pass the 90 day limit in Greece from 2021 on-wards. It doesn't help that much when I decide to sail slowly back to the UK via Italy, France, Spain and Portugal. The first year of the return journey should be OK as the first leg after Greece will be under 90 days.

Following years will rely on my use of an Irish passport and my wife accompanying me with her marriage licence and UK passport. It isn't a perfect solution. My wife should be able to accompany me without a visa for 90 days in Schengen area (no matter what happens with Brexit) and we can get residence in one country to cover the remainder. I can see it being a little time-consuming when switching countries, leaving one with residency, passing through others in under 90 days and then residence again somewhere else the following year.

It didn't come as a great surprise that getting entry or residence for a non-EU spouse isn't guaranteed to be free of problems either. Many officials don't know the rules and there are also traps for the unwary. I can see problems when leaving to fly back to UK after more than 90 days even when following the rules.

I particularly like the Swedish example which would probably apply to a retired person.

• Swedish residents must be registered and get a "personnummer"
• You need proof of medical cover, EHIC isn't acceptable and there are no suitable private health insurance policies.
  The only option is to get your home country to issue an S1 form
• I believe that many countries won't issue an S1 form for use in Sweden without a "personnummer"

Catch 22
No "personnummer" -> No S1
No S1 -> No "personnummer"


Even Germany isn't immune
e.g. German Embassy in Pristina refused a visa to the non-EU husband of an EU citizen wanting to relocate to Germany They claimed a national long-term visa was required. When the couple questioned these demands the officials intimidated them, denied any legal appeal and threatened to issue a permanent Schengen entry ban to both husband and wife if they persisted.

I think that this document is a couple of years old but don't imagine all the problems have been solved.

https://ecas.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/ECAS-Study-on-Freedom-of-Movement-in-the-EU.pdf

 

[Ningaloo]

It is possible to get a 180 day visa to stay in one specific EU country.

But this depends on your nationality. As I started, I am able to do this for France with my Aussie passport. But I am not aware of any EU country having declared this will be possible for UK passport holders. I am sure it will happen, but without this assurance it makes planning for 2021 very difficult.

 

[newtothis]

This is looking promising (as a NZ passport holder).

New Zealand has bilateral visa waiver agreements with the below listed individual countries in the Schengen area. These visa waiver agreements allow New Zealanders to spend up to three months in the relevant country, without reference to time spent in other Schengen area countries. The European Commission has confirmed that these agreements continue to be valid. These agreements thus effectively override the Schengen area restriction (which would otherwise apply to New Zealand passport holders) of no more than 3 months out of a 6-month period in the Schengen area as a whole.

The countries with which New Zealand has bilateral visa waiver agreements are: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. You can, therefore, move visa-free among the above countries for periods of up to 3 months in each country.

If, however, you move to other countries in the Schengen area that do not have a bilateral visa waiver agreement with New Zeland, the restriction of no more than 3 months out of a 6-month period in the Schengen area as a whole applies. If you have already spent 3 months in one or more of the above countries, your presence in a Schengen area country with which New Zealand does not have a bilateral visa waiver agreement may be challenged by local police or other authorities. You may also be accused of being an overstayer when you leave the Schengen area, or when you enter another country outside the Schengen area.