Schengen Visa - 90/180 rule

[syvictoria]

Applying for Irish citizenship is quite easy (if eligible!), but it's quite a lengthy process I believe. A bit of form filling, a payment, and then a long wait - the latter not helped by the fact that many consulate/passport offices have had closures this year due to Covid-19!

Also, to add, dual citizenship is only useful if all crew are eligible, or they are one family group and the alternative passport holder has residency in the EU. Spouses/partners & children can only travel under a spouse's/partner's/parent's EU passport if the passport holder has EU residency (a fact I regretfully only fully appreciated very recently).

 

[syvictoria]

I have temporary residency in Greece (the beige card) as I'm normally here for more than 6 months each year, though I still have a place in England. However, locals here are saying that after Brexit this will probably not exempt me from the "90 in 180" rule. Does anyone have a take on this?

Sadly I think this is true. Residency (as opposed to citizenship - i.e.: holding a passport) only allows unlimited time to be spent in the country of residency. It does not provide freedom of movement throughout the remainder of the EU and hence the Schengen rule applies.

 

[syvictoria]

I am I right in thinking British registered boats already in the EU on 31/12/20, will not become liable for this tax?

I believe so. As it stands, I believe the VAT status of British boats in the EU on 31/12/20 will become EU VAT paid. Boats in the UK will become UK VAT paid. I'm not sure about British boats in international waters. It's all a bit of quess-work at the moment however. What will happen in practise...???

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If your boat is VAT paid and in the EU overnight on the 31.12.2020 then you will not need to do an 18 month temporary import as your boat will remain EU Union Goods and is still free to circulate in the EU. Subsequently returning it to the UK will require you to claim Returning Goods Relief to avoid paying VAT and Import Duty in the UK.

If your boat is VAT paid and in the UK overnight on the 31.12.2020 then you will need to do an 18 month temporary import to take it into the EU as it will have become UK goods only and is only free to circulate in the UK. This is quite easy to do, takes half a day at the EU port of entry and just means you have to do an export/import every 18 months to reset the import clock - also easy to do.

EU Commission confirms RYA thinking on Returned Goods Relief
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf

Citizenship of an EU country for all crew members will allow all to freely travel within the Schengen Area with no limits. Irish passports are the obvious choice for UK citizens not resident in the EU.

Residency will grant you, but not your family members, unlimited (or limited dependent on the type of residency and country) time in an EU country if you qualify. It usually means you have to be there for a certain number of days per year and have a significant reason for being there (retired, working, job-seeking, studying etc.). This will grant you a "safe haven" where you can wait out the 90/180 rule which will be applied to the rest of the Schengen countries in the EU.

Time spent in a non-Schengen country or your Schengen country of residence will not count to the 90/180 rule. The 26 Schengen countries are: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland.

Croatia, Cyprus and Turkey are not in Schengen so can be used to wait out your 90 days, however Croatia has definite aspirations to join Schengen in the near future and they qualify.

Schengen Area - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission

Best advice is to head to the US boating forums and pick their brains on cruising in the Med as UK citizens with no option of residency in the EU or a second EU citizenship will most likely be treated as current US, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian citizens as from 01.01.2021.

European Union | Noonsite

 

[Tony Cross]

I have temporary residency in Greece (the beige card) as I'm normally here for more than 6 months each year, though I still have a place in England. However, locals here are saying that after Brexit this will probably not exempt me from the "90 in 180" rule. Does anyone have a take on this?

The locals are wrong. The beige card and the permanent blue card is all you need to do for now.

Greece is intending to introduce biometric alien residence cards (supposedly by Dec 2020 - good game, good game) and the existing beige and blue cards will be exchanged for these new biometric cards when they become available (almost certainly on payment of a fee). Greece could at that point require additional checks to prove that you are in fact permanently resident in Greece but nothing has been published about any such additional checks yet.

See the Greek Brexit website at Brexit GR: British citizens who live in Greece

 

[syvictoria]

Summarised beautifully by Baggywrinkle.

If your boat is VAT paid and in the UK overnight on the 31.12.2020 then you will need to do an 18 month temporary import to take it into the EU as it will have become UK goods only and is only free to circulate in the UK. This is quite easy to do, takes half a day at the EU port of entry and just means you have to do an export/import every 18 months to reset the import clock - also easy to do.

Although arguably much less easy to do if you are also restricted by the Schengen rule...

Citizenship of an EU country for all crew members will allow all to freely travel within the Schengen Area with no limits. Irish passports are the obvious choice for UK citizens not resident in the EU.

Regretfully dual citizenship isn't an option to all those who would like and benefit from it.

 

[Sea Devil]

Q1. Does this rule mean that I can only cruise the med for 90 days within a 180 day period after which i am then required to leave Europe? Q2. If yes, what are the intentions of cruisers wanting to continue to cruise the med for 6-9 months of the years - in other words is there contingency plans in place - i.e., any street wise advice?

Q1. Yes from 2021 you are indeed only allowed to spend 90 days in a 180 period inside the EU.
Q2. What most Americans, Australians etc do is go to places like Gibraltar, Morocco, Tunisia, Turkey where you are out of the EU
Be aware it is you and not the boat which is the problem. You can leave the boat in a EU country after 89 days and get yourself out of the EU
There are thousands of 2nd home owners in France and Spain who are in a similar situation and there are several facebook sites constantly updated.
It will be possible to get a visa of long duration to say France or Spain that can run up to 180 days.. The price is around 50euro but you have to go in person to the consulate of the country and its a lengthy business.

The only good news is that the EU gives 180 days in 365 to several countries and 2nd home owners are lobbying the UK government to make this part of the deal presently being negotiated but... Who knows....

 

[Caladh]

Q1. Yes from 2021 you are indeed only allowed to spend 90 days in a 180 period inside the EU.
Q2. What most Americans, Australians etc do is go to places like Gibraltar, Morocco, Tunisia, Turkey where you are out of the EU
Be aware it is you and not the boat which is the problem. You can leave the boat in a EU country after 89 days and get yourself out of the EU
There are thousands of 2nd home owners in France and Spain who are in a similar situation and there are several facebook sites constantly updated.
It will be possible to get a visa of long duration to say France or Spain that can run up to 180 days.. The price is around 50euro but you have to go in person to the consulate of the country and its a lengthy business.

The only good news is that the EU gives 180 days in 365 to several countries and 2nd home owners are lobbying the UK government to make this part of the deal presently being negotiated but... Who knows....

As are the RYA.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Although arguably much less easy to do if you are also restricted by the Schengen rule...

I used to do this with my VAT unpaid boat in Croatia ... you simply need to dedicate 1 day in your 90 days to reset the clock (quick export/import at your nearest port of entry) and ensure the boat never stays longer than 18 months between resets. It's what almost all boats owned by non-EU citizens in the med currently do - the alternative is to pay VAT and import duty.

As stated it`s the person, not the goods that is the real pain ... the boat can stay 18 months minus one day in the EU permanently - with no problems - but the non-EU citizen only gets 90 in 180 days, calculated retrospectively.

The one bit I've not figured out yet is the effect of dual citizenship on VAT status and temporary import. As a German citizen I can't get a temporary import into the EU, and as a UK citizen I can't get a temporary import into the UK. My boat however will no longer be UK Goods as of 01.01.2021, it will only be EU goods .... In theory I may be able to transfer it to the UK using returning goods relief as a UK citizen, but then it becomes UK goods and I lose my EU VAT paid status. Using EU/UK RTR to move the boat backwards and forwards between the UK and EU seems a bit crazy.

 

[nortada]

Many people have very different circumstances.

Those of use who have been involved from the start and taken every option open to us to regularize our own situations can only give generic answers and point people at relevant links.

Even then, until post 31/12/20 it is all a best guess. In addition, things are continually changing all and in Portugal we are only too aware that different authorities have widely different interpretations.

Residency is a national rather than EU responsibility so it is possible individual countries will make bi-lateral agreements (over residency) but I think it wishful to think there will be any modification to Schengen.

So up to folk make up their own minds and act accordingly.

One, self-induced, forum wide problem is thread-drift, which causes continuing confusion.

This thread is a case in point, which requests advice on Schengen 90/180, which is about people but then drifts on to British registered boats in the EU post 31/12/20; a totally different topic.

Subsequent posts will combine the issues.

Confusion follows.

 

[nortada]

If your boat is VAT paid and in the EU overnight on the 31.12.2020 then you will not need to do an 18 month temporary import as your boat will remain EU Union Goods and is still free to circulate in the EU. Subsequently returning it to the UK will require you to claim Returning Goods Relief to avoid paying VAT and Import Duty in the UK.

If your boat is VAT paid and in the UK overnight on the 31.12.2020 then you will need to do an 18 month temporary import to take it into the EU as it will have become UK goods only and is only free to circulate in the UK. This is quite easy to do, takes half a day at the EU port of entry and just means you have to do an export/import every 18 months to reset the import clock - also easy to do.

EU Commission confirms RYA thinking on Returned Goods Relief
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf

Citizenship of an EU country for all crew members will allow all to freely travel within the Schengen Area with no limits. Irish passports are the obvious choice for UK citizens not resident in the EU.

Residency will grant you, but not your family members, unlimited (or limited dependent on the type of residency and country) time in an EU country if you qualify. It usually means you have to be there for a certain number of days per year and have a significant reason for being there (retired, working, job-seeking, studying etc.). This will grant you a "safe haven" where you can wait out the 90/180 rule which will be applied to the rest of the Schengen countries in the EU.

Time spent in a non-Schengen country or your Schengen country of residence will not count to the 90/180 rule. The 26 Schengen countries are: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland.

Croatia, Cyprus and Turkey are not in Schengen so can be used to wait out your 90 days, however Croatia has definite aspirations to join Schengen in the near future and they qualify.

Schengen Area - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission

Best advice is to head to the US boating forums and pick their brains on cruising in the Med as UK citizens with no option of residency in the EU or a second EU citizenship will most likely be treated as current US, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian citizens as from 01.01.2021.

European Union | Noonsite

I used to do this with my VAT unpaid boat in Croatia ... you simply need to dedicate 1 day in your 90 days to reset the clock (quick export/import at your nearest port of entry) and ensure the boat never stays longer than 18 months between resets. It's what almost all boats owned by non-EU citizens in the med currently do - the alternative is to pay VAT and import duty.

As stated it`s the person, not the goods that is the real pain ... the boat can stay 18 months minus one day in the EU permanently - with no problems - but the non-EU citizen only gets 90 in 180 days, calculated retrospectively.

The one bit I've not figured out yet is the effect of dual citizenship on VAT status and temporary import. As a German citizen I can't get a temporary import into the EU, and as a UK citizen I can't get a temporary import into the UK. My boat however will no longer be UK Goods as of 01.01.2021, it will only be EU goods .... In theory I may be able to transfer it to the UK using returning goods relief as a UK citizen, but then it becomes UK goods and I lose my EU VAT paid status. Using EU/UK RTR to move the boat backwards and forwards between the UK and EU seems a bit crazy.

Bags, many thanks for another accurate informative message.

You are one of a few of us who regularly answer the same questions so do you keep this and other similar responses in a bank of answers, for instant use? Saves an awful lot of repetitive work.

If OK with you, I would like to add your answers to my bank of answers and use when required.

Bugger, don't seem able to separate my message from yours.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

@nortada ... Feel free

 

[nortada]

@nortada ... Feel free

Ta, likewise, please feel free to use any of my utterances - with or without typos .

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Ta, likewise, please feel free to use any of my utterances - with or without typos .

I like the disclaimer that you pointed out too ... it is up to individuals to assess their own situation and make their minds up accordingly.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Hi, and welcome. I feel your pain and am in much the same boat (pardon the pun) as you due to my partner only having UK citizenship. Yes, very sadly, as it stands, after 90/180 you will have to leave the Schengen zone until a further 90 days have passed, at which time you can return. The time spent in Schengen doesn't have to be taken in continuous blocks and is calculated on a rolling basis. There are online 'calculators' to help ensure that you don't overstay. If my understanding is correct, overstaying may mean that you will not be allowed to re-enter in the future, so it's best avoided!

Others here are recommending obtaining residency in a Schengen country as a way of staying out of the UK (hopefully in the sunshine - Portugal is a popular choice) for additional time. If you have residency elsewhere, you are I understand entitled to reside there at length and this time does not count towards the Schengen 90/180. However, residency does not provide freedom of movement throughout the remainder of the EU and so it is only beneficial to those who wish to stay long term in one particular country and/or cruise elsewhere for no more than 3 months at a time. For those of us who wish to continually cruise for more than 3 months, residency elsewhere is probably of little help.

Others will be along before long with more advice I'm sure. I hope you find a workaround that works for you. Keep us updated.

If you take the residency route, you had better make sure the vessel is in EU Customs Territories on 31st December with Proof it was there. If you gain residency anywhere in Europe you will not be able to Temporarily Import the vessel to anywhere in Europe, Unless ypu pay EU Vat - which you will loose if you are in UK Waters.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Following on from my last some promising updates (see link below):

The EU Parliament’s UK Coordination Group recently drafted a resolution mandating a reciprocal visa-free agreement between the two countries once negotiations begin. This would permit travellers from both the EU and the UK to continue to enter for tourism, study, research, training and youth exchange.
Therefore it is likely that UK citizens will not need to apply for a Schengen Visa like many other nationalities. On February 1st, 2019, the European Council said:

How Will ETIAS & Brexit Affect UK Citizens?

As well, M Barnier changed his mind. He thought he could squeeze us to accept the common fisheries policy so that super trawlers could go on raiding our waters! Boris will not give this away in 100 years!

But most MPs are convinced that the individual countries will give us a Unilateral 6 month Visa is Barnier doesnt . I know that Greece is ready to do this and is only waiting for the stalemate to end and then they are freee to negotiate with us. If Greece does this - I cannot imagine any of the sunshine states in the Med not doing it - otherwise Greece would have obtained a huge competitive advantage over the others!!! what was I saying about a level playing field and having you Hake and eating it!

 

[Chris_Robb]

I am I right in thinking British registered boats already in the EU on 31/12/20, will not become liable for this tax?

Nortada - You are correct, but lets put down the exact words from the Union.
"Any vessels, currently EU Vat paid, and in UK Customs Territories on 31st December will become UK Vat Paid.
It follows that any vessel anywhere else in the world with EU VAT paid will retain EU Vat status. PROVIDED that they are re-imported to the EU by the exporting owner, that there have been no material changes to the vessel, and that the VESSEL HAS NOT BEEN OUT OF THE EU (EXPORTED) FOR MORE THAN 3 YEARS.

 

[Graham376]

Nortada - You are correct, but lets put down the exact words from the Union.
"Any vessels, currently EU Vat paid, and in UK Customs Territories on 31st December will become UK Vat Paid.
It follows that any vessel anywhere else in the world with EU VAT paid will retain EU Vat status. PROVIDED that they are re-imported to the EU by the exporting owner, that there have been no material changes to the vessel, and that the VESSEL HAS NOT BEEN OUT OF THE EU (EXPORTED) FOR MORE THAN 3 YEARS.

I don't think the EU statement about boats in UK waters will be upheld in the courts if it's owned by an EU citizen or resident who have the right to EU RGR. UK boats outside the EU and UK waters on 31/12 and owned by a UK resident will I'm sure be subject to the 18 month rule if they re-enter EU.

 

[Ningaloo]

The locals are wrong. The beige card and the permanent blue card is all you need to do for now.

Unfortunately even with residency status in an EU27 country you are still limited to 90/180 in the other Schengen countries. So the locals are right.

 

[Ningaloo]

No, I wasn't aware of the this (18 month time limit). Do you have a link for this, please?

Seriously? This was voted for almost 4 years ago. How could anyone interested in keeping a boat in EU27 not be aware of this by now!