Schengen 90/180 post Brexit (again... I know!)

[webcraft]

This may help....

Travelling into and out of the Schengen area | British in Europe

Oh yes, very helpful... ??

Can't help thinking the previous situation was preferable...


- W

 

[syvictoria]

This may help....

Travelling into and out of the Schengen area | British in Europe

Tony, thank you. That's an extremely helpful link.

 

[syvictoria]

Oh yes, very helpful... ??

Can't help thinking the previous situation was preferable...


- W

Well, yes, but as we keep being told... we are where we are...

 

[BurnitBlue]

This may help....

Travelling into and out of the Schengen area | British in Europe

Thanks for the link. It deserves more than a casual study and may answer the question as to what new rules will be applicable to folk like myself (and yourself) who already live and have genuine residancy in a country inside Schengen. The "get around" residancy by folk who actually live in UK will have to cross a Schengen border at least twice a year.

 

[syvictoria]

My post is anything but rubbish but it is courteous. Can't say the same for yours.

The title of this tread admits we are visiting the same old ground and poses no questions.

We have gone around and around this discussion with no progress?

Why, because we do not KNOW what will happen so it is hardly rubbish to admit this. Schengen, may or not stay the same but individual countries administration of Schengen could vary. Individual circumstances bring an additional layer of confusion.

You are aware that rather than stand on the side-lines and lob what-if rocks into the pond, some of us have done a lot of research into how Brexit could effect us. Then discuss and share what we find on here, hopefully, for the benefit of all.

If bystanders, albeit, worried bystanders, lob rocks in my direction, I will stop sharing information in open forum.

Sorry you were ignorant of the well known acronym PIGS. I see Robbie has enlightened you.

Nortada, my post was not meant to be disrespectful, as I hoped to make clear in my opening words. Your previous post was, in my opinion, largely irrelevant to the question being asked.

As for my 'ignorance' of a derogatory expression, I personally would never consider that as being 'ignorant'.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Related to this thread. A few years ago I wanted to post my outboard motor to my boat in Greece. The post office use a subsidury called Post-Nord who operate trucks of parcels between "service points" No problem except the price was a lot higher to Greece than other EU countries. I mean a lot higher. I asked why, and they contacted Post-Nord for the reason. Got an answer by email. It was because Post Nord operate to a timetable schedule with foreseeable costs and time en-route. This was impossible to Greece because they have to exit then re-enter Schengen with paperwork for customs and charges at the whim of the officer on duty. This was Croatia and Albania. Also the cargo space had to be sealed with a tab thingy during transit of the non-Schengan state and it all added up to me carrying the extra cost. Just in case you were dying to know that.

 

[nortada]

Sorry. It was a deeper question than it appears. There is no way or requirement to "log" into the various countries en-route once inside Schengen. It is the cornerstone of the system. The requirement is to obey another law and leave voluntarily after 90 days if your situation requires it. Trust and the honour system are paramount in a working system or it will get bogged down and choke on its own rules. An example is a supermarket. It is easy to slip goods in your pocket or under your jumper to avoid paying. The system would collapse if everyone were to be searched at check-out. It is a risk a shoplifter takes. If caught the punishment should exceed the crime.

Staying under the radar has many meanings.

In the past, it was often linked to tax evasion but there are other situations - over staying is one of them; can’t be arsed or plain ignorance are others. Additionally, individual countries have very different attitudes to those 'under the radar'; often driven by that countries circumstances and economics.

Whatever, in Europe, except for those already in the Schengen Zone and not intending to leave by land, sea or air, where living under the radar could still be possible, SIS will make living under the radar a thing of the past. That is unless you are into people smuggling.

A number of folk have declared they intend to continue to live close to the line and it will be interesting to see how they get on. I for one, will stay visible and legal.

Agree the rest of your observations.

 

[nortada]

Nortada, my post was not meant to be disrespectful, as I hoped to make clear in my opening words. Your previous post was, in my opinion, largely irrelevant to the question being asked.

As for my 'ignorance' of a derogatory expression, I personally would never consider that as being 'ignorant'.

Look at your first line of your #155, then take a look in the mirror and explain to yourself how, "With respect, that is simply rubbish" is not offensive. ' With respect' qualifies nothing when you are being rude.

Moreover, it is far from rubbish.

'Don't know' is possibly one of the more sensible comments on this subject.

 

[syvictoria]

Look at your first line of your #155, then take a look in the mirror and explain to yourself how, "With respect, that is simply rubbish" is not offensive. ' With respect' qualifies nothing when you are being rude.

Moreover, it is far from rubbish.

'Don't know' is possibly one of the more sensible comments on this subject.

You appear to have ignored the remainder of my first sentence "at least in relation to the question asked".

 

[Whitlock]

... some of us have done a lot of research into how Brexit could effect us. Then discuss and share what we find on here, hopefully, for the benefit of all...

With respect, how have you been able to do that without a crystal ball and knowledge of what a deal or non deal might look like?

I have subscribed to another forum for many years where one member in particular has, since the referendum, been "researching" how Brexit "might" affect us and has only managed to preach a doom scenario and negative claptrap. Most of us have stopped taking any notice of him on the basis that he is talking out of his backside. He doesn't know any more about the effects of Brexit than anyone else does. Until we know what the outcome of negotiations will be it's all supposition.

 

[Kelpie]

Until we know what the outcome of negotiations will be it's all supposition.

The negotiations seem to be mostly about fishing rights and competition/subsidy rules. Anything to do with freedom of movement isn't getting a look in, and even if there is some sort of deal I think it's highly doubtful that it will touch on matters relating to visas, residency, etc.

So at this very late stage it looks like a reasonable assumption that, no matter what rabbits are pulled out hats in the next couple of weeks, UK nationals will be treated exactly the same as any other 3rd party nation, e.g. like an Australian or a Zimbabwean or anybody in-between. I don't think you can call this supposition, it is just what now appears to be the most likely scenario.

I'm not completely familiar with what these rules are, but they will be exactly the same as the ones that already apply to Americans, Brazlians, Chinese people, etc- not something we should have to guess at.

 

[greeny]

With respect, that is simply rubbish - at least in relation to the question asked. We will almost certainly be subject to Schengen rules from 1/1/21. Those rules exist now. Nothing is changing in that respect. My question is, how does someone account for their movements within Schengen when they are travelling over land within the bloc and so not passing through any passport control or similar? Coming from the UK, I will have to pass through passport control at the channel. But what if I took residency in France and then wanted to travel regularly to say Italy?

And what are PIGS? Please tell me that that was not an offensive and completely unwarranted reference to the police/authorities?

With respect, your question has been aired many times before on these forums and has never been answered completely because the truth is, that no one knows. If you have not seen the question before then maybe you "came to the party late". The only answer right now is that we will have to wait and see.

 

[nortada]

With respect, how have you been able to do that without a crystal ball and knowledge of what a deal or non deal might look like?

I have subscribed to another forum for many years where one member in particular has, since the referendum, been "researching" how Brexit "might" affect us and has only managed to preach a doom scenario and negative claptrap. Most of us have stopped taking any notice of him on the basis that he is talking out of his backside. He doesn't know any more about the effects of Brexit than anyone else does. Until we know what the outcome of negotiations will be it's all supposition.

Why is it when a message starts with - ‘With respect’, it appears to be an excuse for what follows being controversial and seldom respecting others views. In reality, is it begging permission to be rude and offensive.

To answer your question. It is possible to review what is available, ask questions in the right quarters to gain a measured view - no crystal ball required. Throughout these discussions comments are usually qualified with an admission that they are based on supposition and are only speculation. But on these terms, something is better than nothing.

Possibly even more valuable are observations on how the authorities in particular country may react in certain circumstances; based on long term experience in that country. Germans, French, Greeks and Spaniards are not the same nor are their responses.

As to you second paragraph, I do not recognise the character you describe. Is it a snipe at me, an optimist, who tends to be up beat about and hopeful for the future??Given the current situation, possibly naive.?

Many folk on here are genuinely trying to offer their experience to the benefit of others. Would you like it any other way

ps I have deleted my last paragraph - never let the barstewards get you down.?

 

[nortada]

With respect, your question has been aired many times before on these forums and has never been answered completely because the truth is, that no one knows. If you have not seen the question before then maybe you "came to the party late". The only answer right now is that we will have to wait and see.

Greenie, I excluded your genuine ‘With respect’ from my comments above?

ps Note to self - will not start future posts with - ‘With respect’?

 

[nortada]

The negotiations seem to be mostly about fishing rights and competition/subsidy rules. Anything to do with freedom of movement isn't getting a look in, and even if there is some sort of deal I think it's highly doubtful that it will touch on matters relating to visas, residency, etc.

So at this very late stage it looks like a reasonable assumption that, no matter what rabbits are pulled out hats in the next couple of weeks, UK nationals will be treated exactly the same as any other 3rd party nation, e.g. like an Australian or a Zimbabwean or anybody in-between. I don't think you can call this supposition, it is just what now appears to be the most likely scenario.

I'm not completely familiar with what these rules are, but they will be exactly the same as the ones that already apply to Americans, Brazlians, Chinese people, etc- not something we should have to guess at.

Agree, fishing rights, competition/subsidy rules and the right to punish perceived transgressions make good news.

Not so many other elements where agreement may already have been reached.

I have been told there are some 1,600 pages of agreement waiting to be ratified so who knows, modified freedom of movement for Brits, could be part of the Agreement. For a start, unlike many visitors, I understand Brits visiting the EU from the U.K. will not require visas for short stays.

Residency is a national issue so individual countries, not the EU decide their rules on granting residency. Again, bilateral agreements could change these rules with respect to certain countries.

For the record, I am more than happy to be treated in exactly the same way as Americans, Brazilians, Chinese people etc, who have residency in the EU.

 

[syvictoria]

With respect, your question has been aired many times before on these forums and has never been answered completely because the truth is, that no one knows. If you have not seen the question before then maybe you "came to the party late". The only answer right now is that we will have to wait and see.

I am sorry to respond again, but to be clear, I was asking about current rules that will almost certainly apply to some on here from next year on (myself possibly included at some stage). That was why I was interested in the answer. The answer, it would seem, is that the 90/180 rule isn't likely to be challenged for those third party nationals who are resident full time within the Schengen and the system therefore operates on a trust basis that those to whom the rules apply will not breach/abuse them. There is reportedly likely to be a difference if travelling by boat and checking in/out of marinas however. As has been pointed out before, none of these rules are new.

For Brits resident/part resident in Britain, the 90/180 rule can/will be monitored due to geography and the need to cross manned borders. That was not what I was asking at post #150.

 

[Mistroma]

Deleted

Used my phone to post on another thread and it ended up here.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Sorry. It was a deeper question than it appears. There is no way or requirement to "log" into the various countries en-route once inside Schengen. It is the cornerstone of the system. The requirement is to obey another law and leave volantarily after 90 days if your situation requires it. Trust and the honour system are paramount in a working system or it will get bogged down and choke on its own rules. An example is a supermarket. It is easy to slip goods in your pocket or under your jumper to avois paying. The system would collapse if everyone were to be searched at check-out. It is a risk a shoplifter takes. If caught the punishment should exceed the crime.

Just to clarify what I wrote above. A third country citizen resident in a Schengen member state has no restriction on the number of days he can stay in that member state. However, that person is subject to the 90/180 rule in other member states of the EU. If that person stays inside Schengen member states there is no facility or requirement to "log" into other member states because there are no border controls. As above it is, at this time, a trust and honour system to leave and return to the member state he is resident in after 90 days away from it.

Just for a bit of fun, that last "it" refers to being 90 days in an other member state. If he went to Turkey for instance he could spend as long as he was wanted as far as EU was concerned but if it was longer than 183 days he could lose his residence in the member state he was resident in. OK serious mode switched back to "on".

My original post above implied he must leave the EU after 90 days. Not so, he must just return to his residence Schengan member state. The English language is notorious for causing confusion when too many pronouns are used. So basically I just rewrote the original to remove as many pronouns as possible. Sorry ... Granny sucking eggs ... but I feel better to make it clearer.

Edit. Now I await complaints that I have made it confusing. Oh well.

 

[Koeketiene]

This may be useful: Schengen Visa Calculator

 

[nortada]

Just to clarify what I wrote above. A third country citizen resident in a Schengen member state has no restriction on the number of days he can stay in that member state. However, that person is subject to the 90/180 rule in other member states of the EU. If that person stays inside Schengen member states there is no facility or requirement to "log" into other member states because there are no border controls. As above it is, at this time, a trust and honour system to leave and return to the member state he is resident in after 90 days away from it.

Just for a bit of fun, that last "it" refers to being 90 days in an other member state. If he went to Turkey for instance he could spend as long as he was wanted as far as EU was concerned but if it was longer than 183 days he could lose his residence in the member state he was resident in. OK serious mode switched back to "on".

My original post above implied he must leave the EU after 90 days. Not so, he must just return to his residence Schengan member state. The English language is notorious for causing confusion when too many pronouns are used. So basically I just rewrote the original to remove as many pronouns as possible. Sorry ... Granny sucking eggs ... but I feel better to make it clearer.

Edit. Now I await complaints that I have made it confusing. Oh well.

A good summary but it can be even more confusing.?

The rules for residency vary between countries and in the case of Portugal, the status of residency (5 year temporary or 10 year permanent residency).

Temporary residents are required to spend at least 183 days a year in Portugal to retain their status as a resident but after 5 years, if they obtain permanent (10 year) residency, this 183 day per year rule no longer applies so, for example they could spend 4 months in Portugal followed by 8 months in the U.K. and keep their dual residency.

There is a debate in some quarters that Portugal may not enforce this 183 day rule, but given the possible problems of regaining temporary residency if lost, it would be somebody braver than me to test this theory.

I understand the 183 day requirement exists in other EU states but that is a whole different ball game.

I think the fact that residency is state based but Schengen is EU driven is source of some confusion. This could increase even further because, although Schengen is EU driven, at the external borders it is administered at state level (SEF in Portugal).

Of course, within the Schengen Zone there are no internal borders, which is possibly the biggest talking point over how the system of control of visitors and non-EU nationals (third country citizens) holding residency in an EU state can ever really work Possibly an honour system and hammer those you catch breaking the rules