sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Just popped in to see if there any thing new and other the number people having a go at each other , there not so I'm popping out again and staying out till the fighting stop or there something new to Be said 
Schengen 90/180 post Brexit (again... I know!)
- Thread starter syvictoria
- Start date
greeny
Well-known member
"Me Too"Just popped in to see if there any thing new and other the number people having a go at each other , there not so I'm popping out again and staying out till the fighting stop or there something new to Be said
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
The confusion arises because it does not seem logical to NOT grant free movement to the rest of the EU for a third country citizen granted unlimited stay in a member state that accepts him as a resident.
It does become logical however when a practical example is given. For instance, there is no reason why Spain should accept a third country citizen who it considers obnoxious for an unlimitted stay just because another member state finds that same person good enough to be given residency. Hence 90/180 in the rest of EU.
It goes back to being illogical if more than one member state would like to accomadate a particularly desirable third country citizen (like me and my beautiful boat Sweden and Greece) or a nuclear scientist for an unlimitted stay. But no machinery to allow one person to be resident in more than one member state unless the 183 day minimum requirement is dropped.
It does become logical however when a practical example is given. For instance, there is no reason why Spain should accept a third country citizen who it considers obnoxious for an unlimitted stay just because another member state finds that same person good enough to be given residency. Hence 90/180 in the rest of EU.
It goes back to being illogical if more than one member state would like to accomadate a particularly desirable third country citizen (like me and my beautiful boat Sweden and Greece) or a nuclear scientist for an unlimitted stay. But no machinery to allow one person to be resident in more than one member state unless the 183 day minimum requirement is dropped.
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Ningaloo
Well-known member
I suspect you are right for 2021, however once ETIAS is up and running in 2022 I think you might be expected to prove that you have adhered to the rules as it will then be possible to check this very easily. Just as with arrivals by sea have to check in and out via an official port of entry, I imagine that land border crossings between your country of residence and the rest of the EU will require a registration at a police station, town hall or similar to formally trigger the 90 day clock. One thing is clear - the onus is on the individual to prove they have not broken the rules. I would not want to risk being banned from entry if I had a holiday home (in my case a boat) in the EU, much less my primary home.
Travel for third country nationals has always been a chore but most tourists don't have an issue because they don't stay for more than 90 days. Nomadic boat owners like myself who have regarded the EU (rather than UK) as their northern hemisphere home for half the year must find another way of life, but we are the just some of the victims of the Brexit fraud. In my case "preparation" for Brexit has included planning a life outside the UK/EU and a larger boat to allow me to sail further/faster to work around the Schengen rules and eventually leave the northern hemisphere for good, - I am so grateful I have dual nationality and won't be stuck in the UK post 2021.
The "deal" that you refer to seems mostly related to trade and not casual travel. Very early on the treatment of EU citizens in UK and UK citizens in EU was agreed and has been understood for several years. The EU already had a set of rules (Schengen) for short stay visits by third country nationals and I don't think there was ever any attempt or serious expectation that these would be changed for the UK despite the fact that the existing UK non-visa rules allow 180/365 stays by EU nationals. The only doubt was if UK passport holders would be entitled to get an entry permit (aka visa) on arrival at the EU border or if they would need to attend an embassy to get this prior to travel, however this was also clarified/agreed several years ago and remains in place despite ETIAS having been delayed until 2022.
RupertW
Well-known member
That is the difficulty with all EU member states having complete sovereignty, and no plans to change that.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
This isn't really the proper thread for this but it's going to be another consequence for those UK citizens in Greece (either permanently or temporarily).
Any package that arrives via courier in Greece from outside the EU is automatically stopped by the courier company. They will contact the recipient and demand payment of VAT, other taxes, their fee and a fee for storage of the package. It's not uncommon for these fees to exceed the value of the goods in the package. This of course will likely be the fate of packages couriered to Greece from the UK after the end of this year.
A workaround that we have found is to have packages sent by the regular postal service. The Greek postal service (as yet) does not operate such a blatant money-making system.
Any package that arrives via courier in Greece from outside the EU is automatically stopped by the courier company. They will contact the recipient and demand payment of VAT, other taxes, their fee and a fee for storage of the package. It's not uncommon for these fees to exceed the value of the goods in the package. This of course will likely be the fate of packages couriered to Greece from the UK after the end of this year.
A workaround that we have found is to have packages sent by the regular postal service. The Greek postal service (as yet) does not operate such a blatant money-making system.
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
A bit of thread drift. During the last month I have become hooked on American Indian flute music. If listened to using youtube with headphones it is really beautiful, especially the theme from "last of the Mohicans". Short clips of the plains indian life style accompany the music on youtube. Now that is freedom of movement moving to follow the Bison and summer with no borders. Wigwams, pow-wow round a fire, colourful dress.
Then, after a few week watching it becomes apparant that there are borders because of tribal barriers and aggression. Commanche, Apache, Mohican. And what appears to be paradise is shattered. Somebody once said "people forge their own chains." Think of that while watching and listening to that flute music and it makes me both sad and angry.
Then, after a few week watching it becomes apparant that there are borders because of tribal barriers and aggression. Commanche, Apache, Mohican. And what appears to be paradise is shattered. Somebody once said "people forge their own chains." Think of that while watching and listening to that flute music and it makes me both sad and angry.
Graham376
Well-known member
You've got to be joking? Schengen rules (and other EU laws) overrule any national laws. Some people are under the impression that individual states may have their own rules about length of allowed stay but, as entry into Schengen will be logged in database, how do they propose to get around it?
Too many unknown yet, we have no idea what reporting we will have to do when moving around. Typical example - when leaving country of residence for another state, will we be able to drop anchor wherever we please over the border or have to go direct to an official port of entry, which could be many miles away?
RupertW
Well-known member
You will be saying “too many unknowns” right until the last minute and beyond when all third country rules have been known before 2016 and acted upon by most people years ago, with a possible but unlikely bonus of new special rules.
No point in me answering on the sovereignty side as I’m unlikely to convince you that a sovereign nation sharing some rules with other sovereign nations is some areas is still sovereign. They all have different rules about who can become resident and who can become a citizen but have practical shared rules on how those people and third party citizens can move between the sovereign countries.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
90/180 is all very logical if you think about it.
If you want to stay permanently in the EU as a 3rd country citizen you have to pick an EU country to apply to live in - basically apply for residency. The rules are all different in each country with some being more lenient with their ex overseas territories than others, and some favouring certain countries or professions over others.
If residency in one EU country granted you unlimited access to any other under the EU FoM rules, then 3rd country citizens would apply for residency in the country with the lowest residency requirements - say Malta suddenly decided they really needed plumbers - then all the plumbers who can't get residency in Germany would flock to Malta to get into the EU, then travel onwards to their intended final destination.
Why should Malta be allowed to grant a plumber permanent, or even long-term residency in Germany? - well, they can't because it's 90/180 Schengen and 360 days in the country of residence.
... hence 90/180 in all Schengen countries other than the one you are resident in.
Why 90/180 days? ... it's more than enough for 99.9% of tourists to the EU, and it discourages the black market for seasonal cash-in hand employees from outside the EU working the summer or winter seasons on a tourist visa.
Live-aboard cruisers, who want to float round the med for months on end in multiple countries must make up about 0,0000000001% of the tourist industry in the EU ... so I don't expect any special treatment - they will just have to work around the 90/180 rules just like US, Canadian and Australian cruisers do.
People with property in the EU may well get some mechanism at a country level to allow elongated stays, e.g. the French long-stay visa - but because property isn't mobile, it will have no impact on the 90/180 Schengen rules. A long stay in the country where you have property means people can attend to their properties without needing any extra days in the rest of the Schengen area.
Then there is policing the 90/180 rule .... this is where it could get tricky IMO. If you pass through any system which checks your passport - e.g. at airports, ferry terminals etc. - then you will be logged on ETIAS - maybe even at booking time.
If you get flagged when your passport gets ETIAS checked, you will most probably be interviewed where you will be able to present your residency papers and argue your whereabouts for the suspected overstay period. The outcome will probably be at the discretion of the country where you get flagged.
All external borders and internal borders in airports, ferry ports etc. will be doing ETIAS checks, and there is always the possibility you will be requested to present your ID to police if checked for speeding, road traffic accidents, etc. ... so while the borders may not be controlled, there is a finite risk of being caught.
The consequence could be a Schengen ban in a worse-case scenario.
I think it is therefore up to each individual to assess the level of risk they want to take and act accordingly but I do not believe there will be any movement on the 90/180 rules.
If you want to stay permanently in the EU as a 3rd country citizen you have to pick an EU country to apply to live in - basically apply for residency. The rules are all different in each country with some being more lenient with their ex overseas territories than others, and some favouring certain countries or professions over others.
If residency in one EU country granted you unlimited access to any other under the EU FoM rules, then 3rd country citizens would apply for residency in the country with the lowest residency requirements - say Malta suddenly decided they really needed plumbers - then all the plumbers who can't get residency in Germany would flock to Malta to get into the EU, then travel onwards to their intended final destination.
Why should Malta be allowed to grant a plumber permanent, or even long-term residency in Germany? - well, they can't because it's 90/180 Schengen and 360 days in the country of residence.
... hence 90/180 in all Schengen countries other than the one you are resident in.
Why 90/180 days? ... it's more than enough for 99.9% of tourists to the EU, and it discourages the black market for seasonal cash-in hand employees from outside the EU working the summer or winter seasons on a tourist visa.
Live-aboard cruisers, who want to float round the med for months on end in multiple countries must make up about 0,0000000001% of the tourist industry in the EU ... so I don't expect any special treatment - they will just have to work around the 90/180 rules just like US, Canadian and Australian cruisers do.
People with property in the EU may well get some mechanism at a country level to allow elongated stays, e.g. the French long-stay visa - but because property isn't mobile, it will have no impact on the 90/180 Schengen rules. A long stay in the country where you have property means people can attend to their properties without needing any extra days in the rest of the Schengen area.
Then there is policing the 90/180 rule .... this is where it could get tricky IMO. If you pass through any system which checks your passport - e.g. at airports, ferry terminals etc. - then you will be logged on ETIAS - maybe even at booking time.
If you get flagged when your passport gets ETIAS checked, you will most probably be interviewed where you will be able to present your residency papers and argue your whereabouts for the suspected overstay period. The outcome will probably be at the discretion of the country where you get flagged.
All external borders and internal borders in airports, ferry ports etc. will be doing ETIAS checks, and there is always the possibility you will be requested to present your ID to police if checked for speeding, road traffic accidents, etc. ... so while the borders may not be controlled, there is a finite risk of being caught.
The consequence could be a Schengen ban in a worse-case scenario.
I think it is therefore up to each individual to assess the level of risk they want to take and act accordingly but I do not believe there will be any movement on the 90/180 rules.
Graham376
Well-known member
I'm quite familiar with the EU rules as they stand for me, I had residence long before Brexit vote. Perhaps, as the rules for third country citizens have been known for so long, you could tell us what reporting procedures are in place when changing countries by boat?
RupertW
Well-known member
You should look them up - they have been in place since the 1980s, with individual changes by sovereign countries as they go along, e.g. Croatia in 2017 insisting on boats from Italy having departure papers, or Greece and it’s TEPAI. Brexit doesn’t change the rules at all, just means we join the Aussies and the Americans in having to follow them.
I say we, but having known the third countries rules since I looked them up the day after the disastrous referendum, my wife and I won‘t be joining the third country status and put in place what we needed to remain as EU citizens.
nortada
Well-known member
Whilst I concur all you say, you have left one piece out of the jigsaw.
Irrespective of the supremacy of the various laws, it is how they are applied and that is fundamentally important.
To the best of my knowledge, as yet, the EU doesn't have a federal police force with authority across the EU. Could come, but until that time it is left to individual states, who will play it to their perceived best interests.
In some countries you may even find there is little conformity within that country, with local officials 'interpreting' the law as they see it or if unsure, just making it up on the spot. I wonder where that could be?
The important thing is to understand how to cope with this situation. Know the regulations but never argue, just have a Plan B and an escape route, if it comes to it. Deli Belly, The Suez Trots, The Malta Gut ? or to bring it up to date, a nasty case of Covid symptoms.?
Finally, there are times that you have to say, "Fair cop Guv, where do I pay?"
Graham, as you and I both know, given time this way of life can develop into an art form.
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Star-Lord
Well-known member
I have been thinking about this as well... And conclude if you arrive at night or in bad weather then dropping the hook on passage will have to be tolerated! If you wish to stay in said country you have dropped hook in at night or during bad weather you will have to go to nearest port of entry and check in - and obv check out when leaving the country. The best option is to make your base outside of EU27 (like Tunisia or Turkey) and spend 90 days cruising in Italy or Balearics if in Tunisia and Greece if in Turkey. I still think we will get 180 days a year in Europe in one go but maybe not for a while. I am also looking forward to hearing about different countries just not taking any interest ay all!!
Lightwave395
Well-known member
Ningaloo
Well-known member
Pretty much as expected and good to get some confirmation that these will be available. This will work for second home owners in France who can make plans in advance and get to the French Embassy before they leave.
Does not work for long term cruising where plans are rather vague and multiple countries will be visited.
Neither would a similar arrangement by Spain/Portugal work for second home owners in those countries unless they fly in/out direct from the UK as they will have exceeded their 90 days in Schengen so will have no days left to drive through France on their return..
Does not work for long term cruising where plans are rather vague and multiple countries will be visited.
Neither would a similar arrangement by Spain/Portugal work for second home owners in those countries unless they fly in/out direct from the UK as they will have exceeded their 90 days in Schengen so will have no days left to drive through France on their return..
Kelpie
Well-known member
Good news... but no sign of either Spain or Portugal offering a similar visa?
nortada
Well-known member
Please correct me but I understood part of the Withdrawal Agreement was that short term British visitors (up to 90 days) to the Schengen Zone wouldn’t require visa
syvictoria
Well-known member
(my bold above)
Sadly it would seem that the French offerings mentioned in the link are just the existing visa options, with no modifications or simplifications. The article is simply targeting Brits due to Brexit and 1/1/21 being very close now, not I think because there have been any actual changes to visa requirements.
Furthermore, it perhaps shows that countries might not be as willing to amend their existing visa rules so as to not lose British trade as some here might have hoped...
syvictoria
Well-known member
Please correct me but I understood part of the Withdrawal Agreement was that short term British visitors (up to 90 days) to the Schengen Zone wouldn’t require visa
Yes, or more accurately that British citizens would be able to obtain a visa waiver. The linked article mostly deals with long (90+ day) visas and their requirements.