Scary moment, colregs, seamanship, opinions welcome

[Cariadco]

Since I installed AIS, I've been amazing at the promptness of Greek shipping, Giving Way, whilst I'm sailing.
This rarely happened previously.
I wish I'd fitted one, years ago.

 

[Supertramp]

I don't understand why you would think the stand on/give way situation would change once you were in the TSS.

You are obliged 'not to impede' the vessel(s) proceeding along the TSS, but that doesn't change the allocation of stand on and give way obligations between you and that vessel.

Rather - at least as I interpret it - it means that you shouldn't put that vessel in a position where its give way obligations to you (in the contest of the TSS limits and any relationship to other vessels) would require it to slow or stop. Assuming that it could maintain either its current course, or make a minor course alteration, without leaving the TSS, to avoid you, then you have no need to make any course alteration.




I was with you until the bit about closing speeds! I agree that generally one should avoid taking precipitative action that may not be needed, or which might require a further different change once the situation become clearer. That's likely to make your journey longer and more stressful, and more importantly cause confusion and uncertainty in the other vessels around you.

But with high closing speeds I'd tend to want to be keeping a greater distance while there was any uncertainty!

I agree that keeping clear of the TSS might have been a good idea, but don't know enough about your particular intended course and how the TSS relates to that. Those tactics don't work in busy TSSs such as those in the English Channel and North Sea, where there is generally a continuous flow of traffic, and one has to bite the bullet at some point to cross (having chosen the most advantageous location - given the various factors - to do that.

The important thing is that in the event you resolved the situation satisfactorily even if it was a bit hairy at the time. Thinking and talking about it later will mean you're better prepared next time something similar has to be dealt with, and raising it on here has prompted an interesting discussion that might well help us readers.

Thanks - that makes sense and I will reread the colregs again. I think the key is to not impede which may mean holding to your course, especially if that course is visible and measurable to the other vessels.

 

[Momac]

From my perspective keeping out of the way of ships (and any commercial vessel) in any leisure craft is the way to go.
Ships and any commercial craft always get priority over leisure craft.
This is the reality .

 

[Pye_End]

Thanks - that makes sense and I will reread the colregs again. I think the key is to not impede which may mean holding to your course, especially if that course is visible and measurable to the other vessels.

One of the interpretations I have seen is that you will be a crossing vessel in a TSS, and 'normal' colregs apply. If you were to sail at a shallow angle, or down the lane, you could be a bit like a bicycle riding down the slow lane of a motorway - ie. impeding the traffic.

 

[finestgreen]

Thanks - that makes sense and I will reread the colregs again. I think the key is to not impede which may mean holding to your course, especially if that course is visible and measurable to the other vessels.

8f is the relevant bit I think;

(f)

(i) A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea-room for the safe passage of the other vessel.

(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the Rules of this Part.

(iii) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.

 

[Pye_End]

From my perspective keeping out of the way of ships (and any commercial vessel) in any leisure craft is the way to go.
Ships and any commercial craft always get priority over leisure craft.
This is the reality .

Being predictable is half the battle. Both sides following the rules is so much easier. Ships usually alter course much earlier than small boats. If you think you are making course corrections before a situation has developed, they have probably already got a plan. If they head for you, they probably havn't seen you. Not always though - one or two expect you to go round them, come what may - dangerous.

 

[johnalison]

From my perspective keeping out of the way of ships (and any commercial vessel) in any leisure craft is the way to go.
Ships and any commercial craft always get priority over leisure craft.
This is the reality .

That attitude is not always popular with ships if a yacht that should stand on makes a defensive manoeuvre after the ship has already altered course to comply with the regs. I have heard a number of skippers say “I always alter course to pass astern of ships” as well as a number of ships complaining over the VHF when a yacht has made an unnecessary change of course.

 

[Supertramp]

8f is the relevant bit I think;

(f)

(i) A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea-room for the safe passage of the other vessel.

(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the Rules of this Part.

(iii) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.

Thanks - part of the difficulty with high speed vessels in TSS and busy areas is in anticipating where you will be when a vessel reaches you. Easy to say keep clear but sometimes you have to cross.

Pye End's and Uricane Jack's comments are also useful as by the time many yachts are starting to worry, the other vessel has already made its plan and adjustments.

Getting into the right position to cross a busy area, watching (eyes) and monitoring, then only taking significant avoiding action when needed seems a good approach in line with the regs.

It is still unnerving when a vessel is closing you to a possible collision in 15 minutes but cannot yet be seen!

 

[john_morris_uk]

From my perspective keeping out of the way of ships (and any commercial vessel) in any leisure craft is the way to go.
Ships and any commercial craft always get priority over leisure craft.
This is the reality .

May I humbly suggest you rethink your perspective. The commercial vessel will invariably try to follow IRPCS. Your ‘trying to keep out if the way’ leads to you making unpredictable manoeuvres from their point of view and you become another worry for them. Watch AIS and you will see that ships that are predicted to get very close to you invariably alter course to open up the CPA. In fact they’ve often altered long before you start worrying about them. If they haven’t altered at several miles away it’s often because there’s other shipping that they’re watching before they worry about you.

Danger of collision is quite hard to judge with just a hand bearing compass. The bearings don’t appear to be changing when the ship is several miles away. Pre-AIS it made lots of sailors start to think they were going to be run down when actually if they’d waited a few minutes more they would have seen the bearing change.
Of course if you’re under power and you’re the give way vessel then an obvious alternation of course and/or speed is required and appreciated.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Post #41 sums it up rather well.

 

[srm]

Don't understand this. Can you elucidate.

"Rule 10
(j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a
power-driven vessel following a traffic lane."

Usually interpreted as do not put the vessel using the TSS in a position where it has to give way.

 

[Refueler]

Just a question for everyone acknowledging the OP description is a bit vague.

I generally try and think of what the other guy or girl can see.
The idea not so much to make assumptions of what the other vessel is going to do.
rather to make my intentions apparent to the other vessel.
If my internet are clear then I am hopeful the other vessel will act accordingly in a clear and predictable manner.

with this in mind my general preference is to follow the simple interpretations of the various rules ect.

Imagine you are the OOW on a large vessel not huge just an average commercial vessel.
500 ft long ish.
75 ft beam
25 ft draft.

Single screw single rudder. Bridge control.
stopping distance about 1 knmile.
turning circle about 5 cables.

Running at full sea Service Speed about 15 knots.
You have a few restrictions, which you should keep in mind,
Running at full sea speed it is possible but undesirable to reduce RPM quickly, This put heat stress on engines and will attract. attention.
Running on heavy fuel stopping the ME not advisable for any thing other than very short period of time without changing over to light diesel.
Going Astern not going to happen until you have significant reduction in speed.

None of the above is in any way a restriction from following rules.

just preference
If required the engines rpm can be reduced.

No steering limitations

on auto pilot

lookout available who can change to hand steering if required.

good visablity
You have two radars both are full ARPA.
although plotting data may be displayed quickly.
it take’s minimum 3 minutes for reliable plotting data to be produced.

You also have bino’s
Bridge wing gyro repeater with azzimuth rings. ( quite a bit more accurate than HBC)

your lookout reports a sail boat 3 points to port.

what you going to do.

assume it is only a few maybe 4 or 5 miles away sailing quite quickly in a stiff breeze

assume risk of collision exists.

No other problem’s with other vessels
Nothing complicated.

Just to correct ...

1. Ships now in many coastal and designated waters have to run Low Sulphur Gasoil ... not heavy Fuel Oil. Fuel Oil is now only deep sea basically.

OK ... any vessel in coastal or TSS are usually running STBY Engine Room conditions - still Full Sea Speed but Engineer on watch in case ... many actually run slightly lower speed and only Full Away when clear ..

There's another aspect .....

If you cannot see the bridge windows of the vessel / helm position - HE cannot see you ..... just because you can see a bow and hull does not mean all seen.
Radar has same limitation - if you are within the shadow of the ships bow below the Radar LoS ..... you are not 'painted'.

To be seen - you HAVE to move to the side out of longitudinal line if close.

 

[Momac]

That attitude is not always popular with ships if a yacht that should stand on makes a defensive manoeuvre after the ship has already altered course to comply with the regs. I have heard a number of skippers say “I always alter course to pass astern of ships” as well as a number of ships complaining over the VHF when a yacht has made an unnecessary change of course.

I guess it can go each way . I followed the regulations and stood on one time and it proved not to be the best choice . A pilot boat which was the give way vessel crossed my path .
Since then I assume that I will be ignored by commercial vessels unless there is an obvious indication otherwise .
I don't see that it makes any difference but my boat is a motorboat.
I also have AIS transmit and receive which is an excellent tool for keeping out of the way of ships.

 

[Refueler]

I don't understand why you would think the stand on/give way situation would change once you were in the TSS.

You are obliged 'not to impede' the vessel(s) proceeding along the TSS, but that doesn't change the allocation of stand on and give way obligations between you and that vessel.

Rather - at least as I interpret it - it means that you shouldn't put that vessel in a position where its give way obligations to you (in the contest of the TSS limits and any relationship to other vessels) would require it to slow or stop. Assuming that it could maintain either its current course, or make a minor course alteration, without leaving the TSS, to avoid you, then you have no need to make any course alteration.

mmmmm not entirely with you there .... TSS are usually designated because of narrow waters and to assist deep laden craft to proceed in orderly fashion.

When approaching particularly at or near ends of - you are warned in the Regs to be aware of vessels entering / leaving such TSS. Second that in crossing - it should be done at or as near right angles as possible to minimise the time in the TSS lanes.

There is also the rule of not impeding or causing action to vessel that can only proceed in such channel etc.

Most ships as many see - will alter or assist a yacht or smaller vessel - but it only takes a panic stricken helm to throw all to the wall.

 

[Refueler]

Being predictable is half the battle. Both sides following the rules is so much easier. Ships usually alter course much earlier than small boats. If you think you are making course corrections before a situation has developed, they have probably already got a plan. If they head for you, they probably havn't seen you. Not always though - one or two expect you to go round them, come what may - dangerous.

Reason they take early action is that they cannot see you when they get closer.

Second in areas of Yachts - generally the ship does not want to stray of its intended course line too much usually due to depth constraints. Therefore altering early can minimise that.

Speaking as an Ex OOW .... and still in the Shipping World.

 

[srm]

I have made this point in other threads.

On small leisure vessels we live very much in the present moment and can turn our boats around in little more than its own length.

Large commercial vessels have to think and plan well ahead due to the vessels design and the laws of physics.

Before retiring I was running radar and nav simulator courses for MN deck officers.
Candidates were required, on a vessel making around 15 to 20 knots, to have assessed risks of collision at 5 miles and make appropriate alterations at 3 miles from the target. Faster vessels obviously need greater lead times. If the engine room is not on maneuvering standby collision avoidance can only be by alteration of course. A large vessel going full astern from service speed to try and avoid a collision looses steering control and can take a few miles to come to a stop due to its momentum. (I have seen this in the Strait of Hormuz when a tanker in ballast avoided a crossing rig supply ship towing a barge).

If they have not "seen" you (radar, AIS, eyeball) at five or more miles you do not exist. A large ship at service speed can not turn or stop rapidly so with the best will in the world they are unlikely to be able to avoid a small boat dead ahead at a mile or less.

 

[Pye_End]

"Rule 10
(j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a
power-driven vessel following a traffic lane."

Usually interpreted as do not put the vessel using the TSS in a position where it has to give way.

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, and the discussions over what 10 (j) really means in practice, what it does NOT do is require a vessel under 20m to suddenly become the give way vessel in a TSS. 10(a) makes that clear. If the intention was for vessels crossing, or small vessels, to automatically become 'give way' vessels in a TSS the rules would say so.

I have never understood the 'before a risk of collision exists' argument, as this is so open to interpretation of the OOW/skipper/watch leader etc. Surely if there is no risk of collision there is no need to change heading or speed, but if there is an early risk of collision, then there is a risk of collision and COLREGs kick in. Taking early decisive action contrary to the rules is usually fine as everybody then knows what is going to happen in good time.

 

[srm]

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, and the discussions over what 10 (j) really means in practice, what it does NOT do is require a vessel under 20m to suddenly become the give way vessel in a TSS. 10(a) makes that clear. If the intention was for vessels crossing, or small vessels, to automatically become 'give way' vessels in a TSS the rules would say so.

I have never understood the 'before a risk of collision exists' argument, as this is so open to interpretation of the OOW/skipper/watch leader etc. Surely if there is no risk of collision there is no need to change heading or speed, but if there is an early risk of collision, then there is a risk of collision and COLREGs kick in. Taking early decisive action contrary to the rules is usually fine as everybody then knows what is going to happen in good time.

Rule 10(a) states that the normal steering rules apply in a TSS. However, 10(j) makes it clear that vessel under 20 metres or sailing vessels must not impede a vessel using the TSS. If that vessel has to take action to avoid a 10(j) vessel then it has been impeded in its safe passage. This puts the responsibility on vessels under 20 metres or sailing vessels to avoid collision with the vessels using the TSS, effectively making them give way vessels.

The steering rules only apply when there is a risk of collision.

There is nothing wrong with taking early action to prevent a risk of collision/close quarters situation from developing. However, as I mention in #56 large vessels have to plan much further ahead than we often do so its sensible to consider the large ship's likely action when making your early decisive action. A heading change of a few degrees made three or four miles off at 20 knots can avoid a close quarters situation but may not have been recognised by a small vessel.

 

[LittleSister]

I find it amazing that people can so wilfully decide, when it is so important for everyone's safety, that the internationally agreed ColRegs should be ignored, or mean something contrary to what they explicitly say.

Ships and any commercial craft always get priority over leisure craft.

Completely wrong.

There's a very well established set of rules that every maritime country in the world has signed up to for decades to tell you so, and that with very few exceptions all vessels around the world seek to comply with.

Why do you think you know better than them?

"Rule 10
(j) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a
power-driven vessel following a traffic lane."

Usually interpreted as do not put the vessel using the TSS in a position where it has to give way.

I disagree with both your interpretation, and that it's usually interpreted that way.

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, and the discussions over what 10 (j) really means in practice, what it does NOT do is require a vessel under 20m to suddenly become the give way vessel in a TSS. 10(a) makes that clear. If the intention was for vessels crossing, or small vessels, to automatically become 'give way' vessels in a TSS the rules would say so.

Exactly so.

Rule 10(a) states that the normal steering rules apply in a TSS. However, 10(j) makes it clear that vessel under 20 metres or sailing vessels must not impede a vessel using the TSS. If that vessel has to take action to avoid a 10(j) vessel then it has been impeded in its safe passage. This puts the responsibility on vessels under 20 metres or sailing vessels to avoid collision with the vessels using the TSS, effectively making them give way vessels.

The conclusions (highlighted) you draw do not follow from the rules you set out.

You are mistaken to equate giving way with being impeded.

As Pye End and myself had already previously explained, the rules themselves are explicit that a requirement to 'not impede' does not make that vessel the 'give way' vessel, nor make the other one a 'stand on' vessel..

Neither does it relieve a crossing 'stand on' vessel from its obligation to stand on, except - in my interpretation - you should not pursue a course that would require the give way vessel to leave the TSS, slow or stop (also bearing in mind the constraints on its ability to manoeuvre imposed by other traffic).

 

[doug748]

From my perspective keeping out of the way of ships (and any commercial vessel) in any leisure craft is the way to go.
Ships and any commercial craft always get priority over leisure craft.
This is the reality .

Perhaps all you are saying is that you treat all ships as though they are proceeding along a TSS and take early action to avoid a the regulations having to come into play.
That's ok by me but easier in a fast vessel than a slow sailing boat.

There is a good deal of subjectivity in the IRPCS and for good reason. The people getting worked about rules never quite seem to have rumbled this.

.