Scary moment, colregs, seamanship, opinions welcome

[Refueler]

mmmmm Red to Red rule ?

Generally - Red to Red is the norm unless overtaking / being overtaken. Reason is - manouevres will then be reasonably predictable or at least not lead to brown trousers.

ColRegs have a matter that has provided long debate in the Shipping world ... and that is the section that leads to :

Rule 17 (Action by stand-on vessel)

(a)​

(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

(ii) The latter vessel may, however, take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.

(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances at the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.

This Rule was introduced during the discussion to amend the previous ColRegs. As a Cadet that went through Training while Rules were being changed - this Rule 17 caused serious debate. It may seem clear and concise - but it is not. Second that itg implies that Stand On Vessel could be leaving it till collision is unavoidable.
Before anyone thinks to take me to task on this - far better experts on ColRegs than I can ever be argued about it ...

Its not the only rule that created debate ... but this thread is more about the above.

 

[roaringgirl]

I would worry more about making efforts to avoid collision, and less about forcing a red-to-red pass. If green-to-green looks safer, just do it.

 

[srm]

I figure that colregs are out at this point and common sense must prevail,

But what is "common sense"? There are no doubt a large number of US citizens who regard it as common sense that Trump won his last election. They all share the same idea so it is "common sense" within that community.

When it comes to Col Regs they are the only "common sense" that we have regardless of nationality etc., a set of concepts or guidelines regarding safe actions shared by most if not all of the community.

 

[Elessar]

It's on an MCGA document
https://assets.publishing.service.g...keeping_Safety_-_Use_of_VHF_Radio_and_AIS.pdf
Still, a DSC individual call will avoid any misidentification, and at least in my case I would never discuss complex maneuvers, just "Have you seen me? Do you want me to do anything to help, etc" to which 99% of the time they reply "keep your course and speed". Also, a DSC call and radio communication being probably recorded aboard a ship, I think that a radio officer hearing terms like "Ship xyz we are on a collision course" would most likely react. Nothing to lose even if they are not listening.

I never do a DSC call. Way too complicated and I can’t be bothered to figure out how.

With AIS I can just call the ship by name and give them my name which they can see on their AIS display. No ambiguity.

 

[Roberto]

I never do a DSC call. Way too complicated and I can’t be bothered to figure out how.

With AIS I can just call the ship by name and give them my name which they can see on their AIS display. No ambiguity.

I replied to the "vhf with integrated ais receiver" message you replied to, the first text is deleted when quoting a quote. With that equipment it can't be easier: select ais target on vhf, individual dsc call.

 

[Elessar]

I replied to the "vhf with integrated ais receiver" message you replied to, the first text is deleted when quoting a quote. With that equipment it can't be easier: select ais target on vhf, individual dsc call.

Fair enough! Never come across that. What make AIS/VHF?

 

[Supertramp]

Was the ship in the TSS? If it was you were the give way vessel and an alteration for you is very odd, unless he read the situation as a risk of collision in which case he would have to take action.
If it was in the TSS and wanted to leave but had not seen you he should do so at a shallow angle so again an odd turn.
Another possibility is that he was altering for another ship and was unaware of your existence.
When investing in AIS go for a transponder so that others can see you electronically.

I understand the col regs and the change to give way vessel from being in a TSS but check my action in this situation.

I was near a TSS (off Holyhead) with two vessels approaching from opposite directions, one at 20 knts and the other at 33 knts. I was running at 4 knts across and about a mile outside the western end of the TSS. I have AIS, VHF and was in daylight and singlehanded. I could see the problem on AIS before I could see the vessels. My choices were to change course or carry on. I decided to carry on primarily because I had no idea where to turn and it was better to follow a steady and slow course visible to both vessels on AIS. In the event there was no problem and no course alterations evident from either vessel, both passing within about 1/4 mile.

I feel it was the right decision but technically wrong. I might have acted differently without AIS to show me what other vessels were doing.

 

[Roberto]

Fair enough! Never come across that. What make AIS/VHF?

I got one of the first Standard Horizon GX2100 which came to Europe about 11-12 years ago, since then there are surely other models with similar functions from other manufacturers; I think some MFD with AIS and VHF in their network can do the same. Anyway, as usual nothing strictly necessary but nice to have.
r.

 

[Pye_End]

Was the ship in the TSS? If it was you were the give way vessel and an alteration for you is very odd,

Don't understand this. Can you elucidate.

 

[Uricanejack]

Just a question for everyone acknowledging the OP description is a bit vague.

I generally try and think of what the other guy or girl can see.
The idea not so much to make assumptions of what the other vessel is going to do.
rather to make my intentions apparent to the other vessel.
If my internet are clear then I am hopeful the other vessel will act accordingly in a clear and predictable manner.

with this in mind my general preference is to follow the simple interpretations of the various rules ect.

Imagine you are the OOW on a large vessel not huge just an average commercial vessel.
500 ft long ish.
75 ft beam
25 ft draft.

Single screw single rudder. Bridge control.
stopping distance about 1 knmile.
turning circle about 5 cables.

Running at full sea Service Speed about 15 knots.
You have a few restrictions, which you should keep in mind,
Running at full sea speed it is possible but undesirable to reduce RPM quickly, This put heat stress on engines and will attract. attention.
Running on heavy fuel stopping the ME not advisable for any thing other than very short period of time without changing over to light diesel.
Going Astern not going to happen until you have significant reduction in speed.

None of the above is in any way a restriction from following rules.

just preference
If required the engines rpm can be reduced.

No steering limitations

on auto pilot

lookout available who can change to hand steering if required.

good visablity
You have two radars both are full ARPA.
although plotting data may be displayed quickly.
it take’s minimum 3 minutes for reliable plotting data to be produced.

You also have bino’s
Bridge wing gyro repeater with azzimuth rings. ( quite a bit more accurate than HBC)

your lookout reports a sail boat 3 points to port.

what you going to do.

assume it is only a few maybe 4 or 5 miles away sailing quite quickly in a stiff breeze

assume risk of collision exists.

No other problem’s with other vessels
Nothing complicated.

 

[thinwater]

This may not be what happened (another poster suggested this), but let's assume for a moment it is, for the thought exercise.

The OP's case:

• OP's boat is sailing starboard tack and has ship approaching at about 90 degrees from his starboard. He believes it will pass safely ahead of him before they cross.
• The ship turns to port, believing it will complete the turn before it crosses the sailboat's track (it seems he did). He is assuming the sailboat will stand-on, as it should.
• The sailboat misinterprets the ship's actions (easy to understand that--it has happened to me before) and assumes he is not seen. He does not know how far the ship is turning and decides to turn to starboard (default for head-to-head). But he underestimates how far the ship sis turning and how fast it is moving.
• The sailboat turns sharp to port, in effect returning to his original track.

In this case, assuming the ship saw him, correctly estimated their turn radius, and assumed he would stand-on, it would have all worked out, but we can see the weakness of assuming good communication.

A case between two motor yachts. Colregs does not seem to address changes in privilege caused by turning near a crossing or similar encounter (or I have missed it--quite likely). In sail racing rules the duties are clear (for example, you must stay clear while tacking and mark rounding considerations). An example.

1. Crossing boat 45 degrees off the port bow. Crossing boat is burdened in this case, since it is to port, but it appears he will clear ahead, so there is no need for either to deviate. Not a tricky crossing.
2. The crossing boat begins a turn to starboard he will or may not not complete well clear. If well clear there is no issue, but it could be tense.
3. If the crossing approaches head-to-head he could stop turning and pass green-to-green if space allows. No question that he has scared the other boat, since his true course is not and cannot be known. Is he still privileged, as he crosses in front of the other vessel, since by turning he made things quite unclear? At what point is he not privileged? When he crosses head to head and becomes starboard?
4. The crossing could come from port after or during the turn, and now the crossing boat is privileged because of his turn, but again the straight-line boat does not know his true course and may have little time to evade. If he turns starboard he fears a T-bone, depending on when he decides. If he turns port he will pass in front of a now-privileged boat from his starboard, and default is not to turn to port.

I may have mixed something up in the description, but the point is that when you turn near a crossing you really muddle things up, since your true course is not know. It's sort of like giving-way when you are stand-on, but more planned.

A similar case is common near my home marina, where boats can go straight or turn when clearing the channel, and boats can cross or turn into the channel. There have been a few collisions, and the source of confusion is unexpected turns too close to a crossing. It's impossible to know the true course of the other boat.

 

[thinwater]

Don't understand this. Can you elucidate.

Trafic Separation Scheme. Rule 10. Generally subsidiary to other rules, but it does help understand the movements of ships.

 

[Elessar]

I got one of the first Standard Horizon GX2100 which came to Europe about 11-12 years ago, since then there are surely other models with similar functions from other manufacturers; I think some MFD with AIS and VHF in their network can do the same. Anyway, as usual nothing strictly necessary but nice to have.
r.

Good features but RX only which is a shame.

 

[LittleSister]

I was near a TSS (off Holyhead) with two vessels approaching from opposite directions, one at 20 knts and the other at 33 knts. I was running at 4 knts across and about a mile outside the western end of the TSS. I have AIS, VHF and was in daylight and singlehanded. I could see the problem on AIS before I could see the vessels. My choices were to change course or carry on.

. . . or alter speed, or stop! (Amazing how often those possibilities are considered. It seems the way a lot of people drive cars, too!_)

I can't work out from your description, though, why you thought there was a risk of collision unfolding, or why you felt that what you did was technically wrong.

 

[Supertramp]

. . . or alter speed, or stop! (Amazing how often those possibilities are considered. It seems the way a lot of people drive cars, too!_)

I can't work out from your description, though, why you thought there was a risk of collision unfolding, or why you felt that what you did was technically wrong.

I was very near a TSS in significant tide sweeping me towards the TSS. AIS showed both vessels would pass very close. I was technically the stand on vessel until the moment I was in or thought to be in the TSS. The tide was sweeping me towards it. My point was that sometimes, and perhaps often, is it best to stay on course and monitor closely before altering anything, especially with closing speeds that are so fast?

With hindsight (or foresight) I would have edged further from the TSS in the preceding hours.

 

[jdc]

The phrase 'couldn't give two hoots' springs to mind. The ship altered course to port and if he'd seen you it would have been prudent and courteous to give a sound signal.

We see the same happening all the time in ships exiting the S bound TSS off Land's End. One has crossed the TSS going E, passing well in front of a ship, where upon he alters course up-channel and puts himself on a collision course with you. Too lazy / ignorant / unobservant to give the sound signal.

 

[capnsensible]

Just a question for everyone acknowledging the OP description is a bit vague.

I generally try and think of what the other guy or girl can see.
The idea not so much to make assumptions of what the other vessel is going to do.
rather to make my intentions apparent to the other vessel.
If my internet are clear then I am hopeful the other vessel will act accordingly in a clear and predictable manner.

with this in mind my general preference is to follow the simple interpretations of the various rules ect.

Imagine you are the OOW on a large vessel not huge just an average commercial vessel.
500 ft long ish.
75 ft beam
25 ft draft.

Single screw single rudder. Bridge control.
stopping distance about 1 knmile.
turning circle about 5 cables.

Running at full sea Service Speed about 15 knots.
You have a few restrictions, which you should keep in mind,
Running at full sea speed it is possible but undesirable to reduce RPM quickly, This put heat stress on engines and will attract. attention.
Running on heavy fuel stopping the ME not advisable for any thing other than very short period of time without changing over to light diesel.
Going Astern not going to happen until you have significant reduction in speed.

None of the above is in any way a restriction from following rules.

just preference
If required the engines rpm can be reduced.

No steering limitations

on auto pilot

lookout available who can change to hand steering if required.

good visablity
You have two radars both are full ARPA.
although plotting data may be displayed quickly.
it take’s minimum 3 minutes for reliable plotting data to be produced.

You also have bino’s
Bridge wing gyro repeater with azzimuth rings. ( quite a bit more accurate than HBC)

your lookout reports a sail boat 3 points to port.

what you going to do.

assume it is only a few maybe 4 or 5 miles away sailing quite quickly in a stiff breeze

assume risk of collision exists.

No other problem’s with other vessels
Nothing complicated.

How about altering 20 degrees to starboard and use bridge wing gyro repeater to watch for the yachts bearing to shift left?

Oh and sound one short blast.

 

[Pye_End]

Trafic Separation Scheme. Rule 10. Generally subsidiary to other rules, but it does help understand the movements of ships.

Yes I understand TSS's, rule 10 etc., but I don't understand how this automatically makes a yacht a give way vessel (rule 10. (a) says the opposite). 10 (j) presents obligations for a small craft, but does not dictate stand-on and give-way when a risk of collision exists, which it sounds as though it did.

All irrelevant outside the TSS though - sorry to OP for the diversion!

 

[LittleSister]

I was very near a TSS in significant tide sweeping me towards the TSS. AIS showed both vessels would pass very close. I was technically the stand on vessel until the moment I was in or thought to be in the TSS.

I don't understand why you would think the stand on/give way situation would change once you were in the TSS.

You are obliged 'not to impede' the vessel(s) proceeding along the TSS, but that doesn't change the allocation of stand on and give way obligations between you and that vessel.

Rather - at least as I interpret it - it means that you shouldn't put that vessel in a position where its give way obligations to you (in the contest of the TSS limits and any relationship to other vessels) would require it to slow or stop. Assuming that it could maintain either its current course, or make a minor course alteration, without leaving the TSS, to avoid you, then you have no need to make any course alteration.

My point was that sometimes, and perhaps often, is it best to stay on course and monitor closely before altering anything, especially with closing speeds that are so fast?

With hindsight (or foresight) I would have edged further from the TSS in the preceding hours.

I was with you until the bit about closing speeds! I agree that generally one should avoid taking precipitative action that may not be needed, or which might require a further different change once the situation become clearer. That's likely to make your journey longer and more stressful, and more importantly cause confusion and uncertainty in the other vessels around you.

But with high closing speeds I'd tend to want to be keeping a greater distance while there was any uncertainty!

I agree that keeping clear of the TSS might have been a good idea, but don't know enough about your particular intended course and how the TSS relates to that. Those tactics don't work in busy TSSs such as those in the English Channel and North Sea, where there is generally a continuous flow of traffic, and one has to bite the bullet at some point to cross (having chosen the most advantageous location - given the various factors - to do that.

The important thing is that in the event you resolved the situation satisfactorily even if it was a bit hairy at the time. Thinking and talking about it later will mean you're better prepared next time something similar has to be dealt with, and raising it on here has prompted an interesting discussion that might well help us readers.

 

[westernman]

I have only ever had a close encounter once with a biggish ship and that was on a crossing from Barcelona to Minorca. I was under sail on a broad reach.
I carefully watched the ship but held course (the autopilot did, and it steers better and more consistently than I can).

The ship was on collision course with us (exactly the same bearing off the starboard bow for several minutes).
As I was starting to get nervous, it became clear that it had turned about 5 degrees to starboard and would pass a couple of hundred meters in front of us.

So the only thing I have to add to this discussion is that possibly that big ship had seen you, and had worked out that it was going to miss you provided you maintained course and speed.

I would expect big ships not to ever change speed, but to make a small course correction of just a few degrees to avoid hitting anything.

If you do decide to take avoiding action, make it very obvious. Best turn at least 90 degrees or more to starboard. And then another 90 degrees if that is not going to be sufficient.