Sailing retro low tech - legal risk?

[TSB240]

Your CoG compared with your heading will tell you that.

It would do if the chartplotter could display heading.

Impossible on a CP without a calibrated heading sensor input.

Ergo my earlier statement that a chartplotter is useless without combining it with the input of a heading sensor or external magnetic compass.
They do become more useful to a less knowledgeable user once moving over 1m/s or 2 knots as the chartplotter COG derived heading will be nearer to a magnetic heading. (Strong cross currents and winds excepted)

I agree this might not be so obvious to a new boater more used to a Tom Tom in a car and could well lead to answering some questions at a coroners enquiry.

 

[Poignard]

With my next bigger boat I'm keeping it retro, actual charts and compass, no plotter, its how i've done all my sailing to date and I have no inclination to get addicted to another screen and lose the entertainment and challenge of navigating. Obviously will have usual safety stuff, LJs flares etc. I've got a PLB and a VHF with GPS if i need a quick fix, will have depth and log, but no plotter, no radar, no AIS. Basically just back to late 90s early 2000s sailing norms.

So my question is if there is any precedence for someone doing something as it was done for hundred of years but when something goes wrong being prosecuted for negligence for not availing themselves of the latest tech? Having passengers its a bit of a worry but just wondering really.

Either sail with friends who would not dream of suing you or sail single-handed

 

[Concerto]

It would do if the chartplotter could display heading.

I presume you do not use a chart plotter from this comment. This photo completely disputes your comment. It shows the speed according to the log of 8.11 knots, the chart plotter shows the speed over the ground of 6.0 knots and the course as 232 degrees. The course plot on the chart plotter also displays the direction as well (curved live coming from the top to the boat shape with the cursor over it). This photo shows part of Rathlin Island off the Northern Ireland coast. I had sailed from Gigha and was heading for Ballycastle. The tides here are strong and I was punching 2.1 knots of it, but with such a high boat speed it made little difference to my progress.



Not only do chart plotters make life so much easier with navigation, but also with so much more detail. Zooming in and out is so useful. If a waypoint is set you can see how far it is, the course to steer and the expected arrival time at current speed over the ground - all constantly updated to allow you to do what is important in sailing your boat and keeping a good watch arround you.

My own preference is to no longer set up a string of waypoints on any journey. I know where I am planning to go to, so I place the cursor to this place and then just click go to waypoint. If I change my destination, I just click Stop and enter a new point. Having completed a circumnavigation of the UK by this method, I feel it does make you a bit lazy of traditional navigational methods. For 80% of the trip I did not carry paper charts, although I did buy a single chart that covered the whole of my intended sailing area. Even looking at this for long distance hops, I would only estimate the course to steer rather than use my protractor as the chart plotter would be more accurate. The chart plotter also displays the straight line course and this helps you pick up on cross tide or leeway to make course corrections.

 

[geem]

I presume you do not use a chart plotter from this comment. This photo completely disputes your comment. It shows the speed according to the log of 8.11 knots, the chart plotter shows the speed over the ground of 6.0 knots and the course as 232 degrees. The course plot on the chart plotter also displays the direction as well (curved live coming from the top to the boat shape with the cursor over it). This photo shows part of Rathlin Island off the Northern Ireland coast. I had sailed from Gigha and was heading for Ballycastle. The tides here are strong and I was punching 2.1 knots of it, but with such a high boat speed it made little difference to my progress.

View attachment 147607

Not only do chart plotters make life so much easier with navigation, but also with so much more detail. Zooming in and out is so useful. If a waypoint is set you can see how far it is, the course to steer and the expected arrival time at current speed over the ground - all constantly updated to allow you to do what is important in sailing your boat and keeping a good watch arround you.

My own preference is to no longer set up a string of waypoints on any journey. I know where I am planning to go to, so I place the cursor to this place and then just click go to waypoint. If I change my destination, I just click Stop and enter a new point. Having completed a circumnavigation of the UK by this method, I feel it does make you a bit lazy of traditional navigational methods. For 80% of the trip I did not carry paper charts, although I did buy a single chart that covered the whole of my intended sailing area. Even looking at this for long distance hops, I would only estimate the course to steer rather than use my protractor as the chart plotter would be more accurate. The chart plotter also displays the straight line course and this helps you pick up on cross tide or leeway to make course corrections.

We navigate the same way using the goto function. We don't use the track function unless motoring but 99% of the time we use the wind steering function of the autopilot and monitor XTE ( Cross track error). We carry paper charts but never use them. We have a 14" plotter in the cockpit which needs the charts updating but we carry a Samsung tablet with latest Navionics charts as back up. In addition we have C Map on the laptop should we have a system failure.

 

[dunedin]

A not-even-new-yet sailor question: is there a cost difference in the two options besides the initial outlay on equipment? Specifically in the charts.

Seems paper charts are quite expensive, seems you need a lot to cruise an area, and seems they'll wear out/need replacing to be most useful. This seems like quite the annual bill. A chartplotter subscription getting you access to a very wide area at lots of different scales seems less? I've noticed some people saying you can just get apps on your phone.

WARNING - one could debate all year, and probably will, the pros and cons of paper charts and electronic charts (I prefer both).
But the big issue with just using a phone app is the size of the screen.
A paper chart gives you an easy overview of the area you are planning to sail in, which helps identify hazards such as isolated rocks or shallows A very large electronic screen, as used by ships and some large yachts, can also give you this wide view. Both excellent.
But a small screen on a phone or small tablet doesn’t allow that wide perspective. Need to be very zoomed in to see any hazards, or zoomed out to sea the area and then suddenly hazards can drop out of sight on a “vector” type chart.
A paper chart plus an App on a phone can work well in combination. But a phone app on its own I would caution against.

 

[geem]

WARNING - one could debate all year, and probably will, the pros and cons of paper charts and electronic charts (I prefer both).
But the big issue with just using a phone app is the size of the screen.
A paper chart gives you an easy overview of the area you are planning to sail in, which helps identify hazards such as isolated rocks or shallows A very large electronic screen, as used by ships and some large yachts, can also give you this wide view. Both excellent.
But a small screen on a phone or small tablet doesn’t allow that wide perspective. Need to be very zoomed in to see any hazards, or zoomed out to sea the area and then suddenly hazards can drop out of sight on a “vector” type chart.
A paper chart plus an App on a phone can work well in combination. But a phone app on its own I would caution against.

Agreed. Our 14" plotter came with the boat. I would never have bought one that large but having used it for a few years it would be very hard to go back to a small plotter

 

[TSB240]

I presume you do not use a chart plotter from this comment. This photo completely disputes your comment. It shows the speed according to the log of 8.11 knots, the chart plotter shows the speed over the ground of 6.0 knots and the course as 232 degrees. The course plot on the chart plotter also displays the direction as well (curved live coming from the top to the boat shape

You presume whatever you like!

The photo completely reinforces my comment.

The screenshot clearly shows your COG not your Heading on your MFD.

I would hazard a guess but given your log of 8.11 knots and your SOG of 6 knots your heading would have been 220 or 225. Shame you didn't take a picture of your compass at the same time to prove my point.

I repeat a chartplotter is dumb to heading unless you have a heading sensor and display it as such on your MFD.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

If you want Heading, CoG, Tide, Wind, Course to Waypoint and lay lines all on one screen just get a Triton2. This is guidance information rather than charting so you don't need a plotter. Use your chart or Plotter for navigation.

 

[Concerto]

You presume whatever you like!

The photo completely reinforces my comment.

The screenshot clearly shows your COG not your Heading on your MFD.

I would hazard a guess but given your log of 8.11 knots and your SOG of 6 knots your heading would have been 220 or 225. Shame you didn't take a picture of your compass at the same time to prove my point.

I repeat a chartplotter is dumb to heading unless you have a heading sensor and display it as such on your MFD.

Compared to most boats, I have 2 compasses. Neither have been swung and do give a very slightly different reading when moored in a marina berth. However that is irrelevant compared to the movement of the compass in rough weather. Watching it for some minutes, I would be lucky to estimate the course being steered with at minimum 5 degree of error. To me the heading is irrelevant as I am more interested in staying on track to arrive at my destination, which the chart plotter does exceedingly well. The lack of a heading sensor in a chart plotter is totally irrelevant. My aim in sailing is to arrive at my destination as quickly as possible for the conditions.

Strangely when I used to race in slow dinghies, we never had a compass. When sailing cross tide we always managed to sail a straight course by using either the rounding buoy with a mark on the shoreline behind or a part of the boat and the rounding buoy. The course we sailed was adjusted as the speed of the cross tide varied. So knowing the course steered was completely irrelevant, just as irrelevant as a chart plotter not having a heading sensor.

Then there are other things that can affect a compass. I found one this year. It started with the autopilot suddenly changing course when an object was moved nearby. This video shows the poblem.

 

[Adios]

My own preference is to no longer set up a string of waypoints on any journey. I know where I am planning to go to, so I place the cursor to this place and then just click go to waypoint. If I change my destination, I just click Stop and enter a new point. Having completed a circumnavigation of the UK by this method, I feel it does make you a bit lazy of traditional navigational methods.

Even looking at this for long distance hops, I would only estimate the course to steer rather than use my protractor as the chart plotter would be more accurate. The chart plotter also displays the straight line course and this helps you pick up on cross tide or leeway to make course corrections.

Thats exactly what I'd expect I'd end up doing. But can't argue with the fact you completed the journey and didn't get bored. I just know having one will be a never going back thing. Like smart phones, I resisted for years and then addicted to the damn thing like everyone else.

Interesting that you steered direct courses and ferry glided your way around the UK. I wonder how much difference that made in time (guessing not much) but clearly it didn't impact your enjoyment and you weren't in a hurry anyway. Actually though going parallel to the coast like you were mostly not much side action compared to crossing the tide direction. Did you at least do it for the bristol channel?

 

[Concerto]

Thats exactly what I'd expect I'd end up doing. But can't argue with the fact you completed the journey and didn't get bored. I just know having one will be a never going back thing. Like smart phones, I resisted for years and then addicted to the damn thing like everyone else.

Interesting that you steered direct courses and ferry glided your way around the UK. I wonder how much difference that made in time (guessing not much) but clearly it didn't impact your enjoyment and you weren't in a hurry anyway. Actually though going parallel to the coast like you were mostly not much side action compared to crossing the tide direction. Did you at least do it for the bristol channel?

Technology has made navigation so much easier than by traditional methods. Most days there was plenty to do, but on lighter and warmer days I will admit I might have a quiet time to just rest or read a book. This was only in very clear water and visual checks every 10 to 15 minutes. Most sailing friends who have sailed with me say I am so relaxed whilst sailing when they stay tense. Sailing should be relaxing, but I still like tweaking the sails, checking my position, plus taking photos and videos - but none of these stress me. Even using the spinnaker never worries me as I used to be foredeck crew and spinnaker trimmer when racing. Perhaps having experienced too many things that have gone wrong in the past and survived helps. Right at the end of my trip I did have to get towed into Dover due to an engine failure and the port authorities would not let me sail into the harbour, this is the first time ever being towed in 5 decades. Again I have never had to call out the emergency service to assist, but someone in Orkney thought I was in trouble and sent the lifeboat out for me and they realised I did not require their services.

There were a surprising number of places sailing round the UK where you cross strong tides, rather than going with or against the flow. There was cross tide from Dale, Milford Haven to Padstow, but I just followed the track on the chart plotter and corrected for any sideway drift for ¾ of the distance. Then approaching Padstow I lifted to about ¼ mile uptide to ensure I had tide underneath.

 

[lustyd]

There was cross tide from Dale, Milford Haven to Padstow, but I just followed the track on the chart plotter and corrected for any sideway drift for ¾ of the distanc

Realistically the alternative is manually working out the tide over the journey and probably aiming in the same direction anyway. If the wind is even slightly uncooperative those carefully worked out plans are usually out of the window anyway when you can't sail to the carefully worked out heading. Outside of channel crossings which happen to be about 12 hours for a nice S shape track I think sailing to the plotter is just the acceptance that the old way wasn't as good as suggested, not a reliance on technology. I do still check the tides and do the calcs, but usually just go for the plotter track.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I still find advantage in passage planning. Particularly cross tide. You’ve always needed a plan b, and c, and probably d too in case of unco-operative weather, but I find looking at cross track tides particularly useful. Do you need to follow the direct track? It’s often faster not to, unless some hazard or other forces you to. I love my plotter, but as I’ve said, it’s not the only tool in the box.

 

[Stemar]

Then there are other things that can affect a compass. I found one this year. It started with the autopilot suddenly changing course when an object was moved nearby. This video shows the poblem.

I had a similar thing a few years back. I went forward to sort out something and the autopilot changed our course by about 20 degrees. I came back and it corrected itself. Somehow, my favourite pocket knife had become magnetic and had to be banished from the boat

 

[lustyd]

It’s often faster not to

In theory and motorboats yes. In practice your plan is out of the window while under sail unless you're exceptionally lucky with the wind. I notice no appreciable difference in journey times out in the real world. In reality I often set the autopilot to wind mode and reassess every hour or two for best overall progress and speed. It's no good steering the shortest route through the water if it results in your speed dropping to 2kts

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Theres the difference then. We have a trimaran.

 

[zoidberg]

Theres the difference then. We have a trimaran.

Ah, but you've got to sail at three times the speed of anyone else, at three times the wind angle, to get there at the same time.....

 

[lustyd]

Theres the difference then. We have a trimaran.

And you motor everywhere? Trimaran's under sail still have constraints.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

And you motor everywhere? Trimaran's under sail still have constraints.

Course they do, but it’s a sad day that we are reduced to 2 knots

 

[lustyd]

Course they do, but it’s a sad day that we are reduced to 2 knots

if your carefully calculated heading is where the wind is coming from it'll be worse than 2 knots