Sailing retro low tech - legal risk?

[Adios]

a) You are confusing two different things. COG and Heading.
b) My phone has magnetic flux sensor and has a compass app to display it. I don't need to move for it to be perfectly accurate.

a) pretty sure he wasn't
b) what model of phone do you have as I tried to figure out what system my iphone uses and couldn't come up with an answer. I doubt its as accurate a system as the flux gate ones in a tiller pilot for example.

But still regardless of phones do plotters ever have a flux gate compass internally or rely on calculations based on movement

 

[westernman]

a) pretty sure he wasn't
b) what model of phone do you have as I tried to figure out what system my iphone uses and couldn't come up with an answer. I doubt its as accurate a system as the flux gate ones in a tiller pilot for example.

But still regardless of phones do plotters ever have a flux gate compass internally or rely on calculations based on movement

A standard "package" installed by a manufacture will always include a flux gate compass connected to the plotter and autopilot. They are usually separate and not internal to the plotter.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

a) pretty sure he wasn't
b) what model of phone do you have as I tried to figure out what system my iphone uses and couldn't come up with an answer. I doubt its as accurate a system as the flux gate ones in a tiller pilot for example.

But still regardless of phones do plotters ever have a flux gate compass internally or rely on calculations based on movement

My plotter doesn't produce a sensible heading until moving. Which is why we have a fluxgate compass as well, plus of course a magnetic old school one.

 

[lustyd]

Indeed, but suggesting technology as a whole is crap because a specific implementation has been done badly seems a weird stance to take. The compass is external to the plotter because it needs to be placed in a particular way. Plotters are usually surrounded by wiring which affects compasses, so a very poor location to put it. I've seen more traditional compasses affected by nearby electronics than I have fluxgate (or modern 9 axis) compasses with issues. Many boats these days you can see the ships compass jerk as the instruments are switched on, yet people blindly trust the analogue device because it's old tech.

 

[Adios]

Indeed, but suggesting technology as a whole is crap because a specific implementation has been done badly seems a weird stance to take.

No one said that. My hope is purely to find the sweat spot between what is enough and what takes the adventure and challenge out of it and what might breed complacency and ignorance of other methods that don't rely on a power source.

I've seen more traditional compasses affected by nearby electronics than I have fluxgate (or modern 9 axis) compasses with issues. Many boats these days you can see the ships compass jerk as the instruments are switched on

Its a good analogy for my concern. There will be two ways to approaching new tech, either thoughtlessly throwing every new gadget on with so little care it interferes with the old ways, making something actually highly reliable seem redundant and not worth even having, or carefully adding things in moderation trying not to add so much, or in such a way, that the old ways remain a functional part of everyday sailing.

 

[lustyd]

No one said that

It's been repeatedly stated on this thread that plotters are unable to operate at low speed, and it's been repeatedly pointed out that that's not true of a properly installed system. It's the equivalent of saying a nail, cork and bowl of water are representative of all ships compasses.

 

[capnsensible]

I often go out for a walk without my phone. So far I've survived. Same with driving and sailing.

But I admire those that can spend all day eyes glued to a screen. Makes my eyes go cross hatched.

 

[dunedin]

A standard "package" installed by a manufacture will always include a flux gate compass connected to the plotter and autopilot. They are usually separate and not internal to the plotter.

Precisely. And generally the flux gate compass (ideally also with gyro sensors) is sited well away from the plotter, to minimise other magnetic interference.
Seems like lots of the people on here who have concerns about use of plotters, and the other related systems,have limited experience of them in practice?

 

[dunedin]

I often go out for a walk without my phone. So far I've survived. Same with driving and sailing.

But I admire those that can spend all day eyes glued to a screen. Makes my eyes go cross hatched.

We try to always take a phone when out walking, as generally away from civilisation. Very often useful as we have the entire British OS 1:25,000 maps, which has helped find routes and improve our walks many times. (Had similar in Norway when there).
Also, over the years we have phoned in to deal with a number of minor emergencies we have come across - fallen walkers, lost dogs, loose cattle, etc. Fortunately we have not been the casualty yet, but if we were we would hope the phone would help.
Often no signal in immediate vicinity, but used to climbing to nearest high point for signal. And if serious walk may take the PLB.

 

[Adios]

And if serious walk may take the PLB.

I take my PLB when walking on moors with the kids. Might as well as I've got it. If I break an ankle I can't send the kids off to get help and often no signal or battery power for phone. I updated the PLB registration (which you can more easily do online now) to mention using it this way so they might take the alert more seriously even though on land.

 

[Supertramp]

Precisely. And generally the flux gate compass (ideally also with gyro sensors) is sited well away from the plotter, to minimise other magnetic interference.
Seems like lots of the people on here who have concerns about use of plotters, and the other related systems,have limited experience of them in practice?

As one of the people you refer to I agree.

I can use my plotter and Navionics for basic tasks, and can even get the radar and plotter working together. But after that I start referring to the Raymarine handbook which is even bigger than the plotter...... And unless I use some newly discovered piece of complexity regularly it drops out of my mental toolbox. I know that my two compasses, the autopilot/plotter compass and Navionics will not show exactly the same bearing. As others have said its good to have several ways to do the same thing. Interestingly I have witnessed (and made) more errors transferring waypoints into electronics than ever happens on paper. I would like to be expert with electronics, especially when sailing on other boats but perhaps is an age thing.

I think the OP is on the right track with a cautious approach and preference for long established simplicity but also having and using the newer systems. Belt, braces and spare trousers.

An interesting, informative and well managed thread.

 

[lustyd]

I'm curious, are there any SCUBA divers on the thread who still use tables and a watch as their primary tools? It's been a long time since I saw anyone dive without a computer, but arguably these add very little to the experience.

 

[westernman]

A gyro improves enormously the response of the autopilot. Even if you have a flux gate compass as well.

 

[zoidberg]

Let's try a metaphor....

"You want to engage a carpenter to do some complex work, and you invite a few around to scope the job and discuss, while you gauge which you think might likely be the most reliable.

The first one turns up with a small toolbag. During discussion, he opens it to show you it contains the very latest American electronic jigsaw, complete with 20V battery and charger. And its 500-page manual in 6 languages - one of them being Chinese English. 'This'll do everything.' he tells you. 'It's all I need.'

The second carpenter turns up - a wizened fellow - with a large toolbag. When you ask what's in there, he shows you a wide array of tools - some new and electronic, some old, well-used and obviously maintained with care. You ask him why so many tools. 'I've been doing this a long time, and I was trained by top trade experts. I can do your work with this tool, or that tool, or a combination of others. I try to select the most appropriate one. And if one breaks down - the battery fails, or a blade breaks - then I simply switch to using another. No drama. I call it Reversionary Mode'.

He's the guy you give the job to...."

Now I was trained, professionally, in navigation skills.... by top trade experts. HMQueen paid for my apprenticeship. Central to that was the Reversionary concept. Gear breaks down at inconvenient times. Sometimes it gives deceptive, wrong information. It was expected, as a normal part of the job, that I and colleagues would seamlessly pick and mix from ALL the available kit and techniques, switching as and when appropriate.

Reversionary Nav.....

Have the ability to choose from among an array of tools and techniques. That's pro navigation.....

 

[lustyd]

It's not a very good metaphor, the tradesman would have lots of tools because they need to be prepared to do any job.

This is more akin to a window installer who turns up with the tools to fit a window. One has a couple of electric drills and electric impact drivers with multiple redundant batteries and chargers, and the other turns up with some screwdrivers and a hand drill. The outcome is the same, but the first will have a more pleasant day.

 

[Adios]

It's not a very good metaphor, the tradesman would have lots of tools because they need to be prepared to do any job.

This is more akin to a window installer who turns up with the tools to fit a window. One has a couple of electric drills and electric impact drivers with multiple redundant batteries and chargers, and the other turns up with some screwdrivers and a hand drill. The outcome is the same, but the first will have a more pleasant day.

A (small scale) builder friend of mine refuses to buy a laser level as he always charges by day rate and sees efficiency as a way to make less money. I'd rather get the job done in half the time, charge the same, in fact a bit more to cover the expensive tools that the client can see me using, and do a second job on the other day or take the day off.

If I was sailing for money I'd have a plotter for sure. But the analogies don't apply to leisure sailing.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Except that when sailing, only a minor part of your nav is about efficiency unless you’re racing. It’s primary safety. Staying out of harm’s way in all it’s forms. Who wouldn’t want to use everything available for that? Ownership of a plotter shouldn’t prevent you from using all the other tools in your box as well.

 

[jamie N]

It seems to me that if one was to compare yotties to aviators, the aviator can readily go from IFR to VFR in the case of instrument failure, the thing to ensure is that one can also, if the lights go out.
Of course a plotter is great to have, even when it's got a flat battery it's a useful drinks tray or conversation piece! ?

 

[lustyd]

But the analogies don't apply to leisure sailing.

Completely agree, I don't want to feel like I have homework to do while out enjoying my weekend, I just want to get on with enjoying myself and leave the paperwork for the office where it belongs!

 

[Skylark]

I'm curious, are there any SCUBA divers on the thread who still use tables and a watch as their primary tools? It's been a long time since I saw anyone dive without a computer, but arguably these add very little to the experience.

Same as when sailing, I use a variety of tools at my disposal. I dive with a computer but always carry 88 Tables in my bag. My computer uses a similar Haldane model algorithm to the Table so simply eats-up any safety margin compared to the conservatism of assuming square profile.

Pushing the envelop to believe that I am that average person with which the model was developed doesn’t seem that wise to me. With more than a thousand dives under my weight belt, I’ll continue with this approach and not have blind-faith in the information shown on a computer screen. DCI is not something to gamble with.