Sailing retro low tech - legal risk?

[Adios]

With my next bigger boat I'm keeping it retro, actual charts and compass, no plotter, its how i've done all my sailing to date and I have no inclination to get addicted to another screen and lose the entertainment and challenge of navigating. Obviously will have usual safety stuff, LJs flares etc. I've got a PLB and a VHF with GPS if i need a quick fix, will have depth and log, but no plotter, no radar, no AIS. Basically just back to late 90s early 2000s sailing norms.

So my question is if there is any precedence for someone doing something as it was done for hundred of years but when something goes wrong being prosecuted for negligence for not availing themselves of the latest tech? Having passengers its a bit of a worry but just wondering really.

 

[Concerto]

Believe it or not but I sail with basic instruments with the exception of a chart plotter and an autopilot. At present my wind instrument does not have the strut fitted and I just sailed round Britain. I have no AIS or radar. None of my instruments are linked. Not only that I did not buy paper charts for the trip, but relied on the chart plotter and the CA Almanac, supplemented with Google searchs of harbours and Google maps on my phone. No other boating apps other than for weather forecasts.

In the 60's and 70's I learnt to sail with just paper charts, log, depth and swung compass. Later we had a RDF, then progressed to Decca and then sat nav.

Having a chart plotter does make sailing a lot safer, but otherwise I would say no problem at all staying with basic equipment.

 

[Adios]

Believe it or not but I sail with basic instruments with the exception of a chart plotter and an autopilot. At present my wind instrument does not have the strut fitted and I just sailed round Britain. I have no AIS or radar. None of my instruments are linked. Not only that I did not buy paper charts for the trip, but relied on the chart plotter and the CA Almanac, supplemented with Google searchs of harbours and Google maps on my phone. No other boating apps other than for weather forecasts.

I noticed! Excellent achievement

Having a chart plotter does make sailing a lot safer, but otherwise I would say no problem at all staying with basic equipment.

Yes must be safer. So when I'm responsible for others will i be negligent for not using the available safety device (plotter) that everyone now sees as basic equipment?

They are almost ubiquitous on boats, so it will probably have one that I'd just leave unplugged. In which case it feels easy to imagine being blamed for not using it if i had a navigational mishap. I'd probably be better removing it in that respect. Ironically I'm 1000% certain I'd keep a worse watch though if i have a plotter to rely on rather than having to see where I am and where I'm going.

 

[Tranona]

You can do whatever you want. The only thing you have to comply with is SOLAS rules which are minimal and basic. You cannot be "prosecuted" for negligence - this is not a criminal or statutory offence but is under the common law of Tort. Why do you think that you are committing an offence because you do not plan to use modern aids? - there is no compulsion.

I don't know of any examples of a crew member successfully suing a skipper on the basis of not having particular items of equipment on board. There is no requirement to have any of the equipment you list so how could a lack of it give rise to any claim against you?

 

[Adios]

You can do whatever you want. The only thing you have to comply with is SOLAS rules which are minimal and basic. You cannot be "prosecuted" for negligence - this is not a criminal or statutory offence but is under the common law of Tort. Why do you think that you are committing an offence because you do not plan to use modern aids? - there is no compulsion.

I don't know of any examples of a crew member successfully suing a skipper on the basis of not having particular items of equipment on board. There is no requirement to have any of the equipment you list so how could a lack of it give rise to any claim against you?

Negligent manslaughter. I'm not living in fear of this unlikely event but it could still be an outside possibility so I'm curious. Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

There was someone recently, experienced boating person decided not to wear a lifejacket while on someone elses tender (IIRC) and drowned. Skipper of dinghy I think was legally pursued. Boat skippers even if a couple of mates in a dinghy are legally held to account.

If plotters are seen as basic safety equipment might I be considered negligent for not using one. Its at a point where AIS is seemingly considered basic safety gear now.

I'm unironically posting that the tour leader in the SUP deaths should be put in prison on the other thread. Should we be responsible to avail ourselves of every now available safety device...? Its not really comparable to what she did but I can't help wondering if i'm putting myself at risk even if I do everything else right if something goes wrong.

 

[ylop]

Given the GGR guys do it with less tech than you are proposing, and during YM exams the examiner will specifically turn off/cover some tech to prove the skipper can work the paper way I can’t see how anyone could change complain. Perhaps if you have a chartplotter on board and sail into something it would helped you avoid there might be some sort of criticism but I think that’s more likely for the MAIB 2020 Hindsight Report than the courts. My insurers were very detailed in asking all sorts of things about what we have on board and they didn’t ask at all about chartplotters suggesting they’ve not found enough statistics to justify hiking or reducing premiums for those without.

I can completely understand where you are coming from, when we acquired our current boat she had very limited electronics and it’s been quite liberating to go back to the old methods - although that has been sailing in waters I know well, so we are adding stuff as we extend our range. Are you the only person on board who helms/navigates?

 

[Adios]

Given the GGR guys do it with less tech than you are proposing, and during YM exams the examiner will specifically turn off/cover some tech to prove the skipper can work the paper way I can’t see how anyone could change complain. Perhaps if you have a chartplotter on board and sail into something it would helped you avoid there might be some sort of criticism but I think that’s more likely for the MAIB 2020 Hindsight Report than the courts. My insurers were very detailed in asking all sorts of things about what we have on board and they didn’t ask at all about chartplotters suggesting they’ve not found enough statistics to justify hiking or reducing premiums for those without.

I can completely understand where you are coming from, when we acquired our current boat she had very limited electronics and it’s been quite liberating to go back to the old methods - although that has been sailing in waters I know well, so we are adding stuff as we extend our range. Are you the only person on board who helms/navigates?

No I'll get my kids to learn which is part of the reason to keep it fundamental. And give them something to do. And I always found it a fun challenge. I end up using a sat nav in my car even when I know where i'm going in case of getting stuck in motorway traffic and it irritates me, feels liberating, even slightly edgy, to turn it off. No traffic on the sea so really no need for it.

 

[Concerto]

If plotters are seen as basic safety equipment might I be considered negligent for not using one. Its at a point where AIS is seemingly considered basic safety gear now.

Why not use the technology that is available? A chart plotter certainly removes any doubt about your position and reduce the likelyhood of a navigational error. The Mark 1 eyeball is excellent in good daylight visibilty, but not very good in fog or on a moonless night. Earlier this year I found the chart plotter was brilliant whilst rounding Out Stack in less than 100m visibility (see my latest video) and whilst navigating through the Ramsey Sound near St Davids on a moonless night as there are no lit buoys to guide you through.

AIS is more about seeing what ships are near you and whether you are on a collision course. You also need to have a broadcasting AIS to let ships know of your presence. If you do not watch it carefully then accidents can happen, as happened a few days ago.
Fishing boat missing off channel islands
In virtually all conditions the Mark 1 eyeball works well - provided you keep a good watch arround the boat.

 

[ylop]

Negligent manslaughter. I'm not living in fear of this unlikely event but it could still be an outside possibility so I'm curious. Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

I think your fears are unfounded. The test for negligence is really high - and given the warning displayed on plotter screens at start up you’d have a compelling defence. The test in a civil case would be simpler but not having a plotter would still have to contribute to the incident - so if you don’t hit anything you will be 100% fine! If you do hit something someone would have to show that you would have missed it if you had a plotter AND it was negligent not to have a plotter. Buying a car without a collision avoidance system is not negligent event though the majority of new medium sized up models probably have it. Plenty of boats with no plotter, sailing dinghies, dayboats, trailer sailers, powerboats, cabin cruisers etc. if it was negligent not to have a plotter at what size would that apply?

There was someone recently, experienced boating person decided not to wear a lifejacket while on someone elses tender (IIRC) and drowned. Skipper of dinghy I think was legally pursued. Boat skippers even if a couple of mates in a dinghy are legally held to account.

was the case successful? Anyone can try and make a claim - that’s not the same as winning. Was this in the U.K. or a jurisdiction where wearing/carrying life jackets on small boats was mandatory?

Its at a point where AIS is seemingly considered basic safety gear now.

by who? IIRC Even charter boats and RYA training vessels are not required to have AIS. Are you planning to sail across the channel in the dark? 24h+ singlehanded? Does life dictate that you sail even when it’s foggy? You still wouldn’t need one in those circumstances but I’d find it harder to justify to myself.

 

[ylop]

No I'll get my kids to learn which is part of the reason to keep it fundamental. And give them something to do. And I always found it a fun challenge. I end up using a sat nav in my car even when I know where i'm going in case of getting stuck in motorway traffic and it irritates me, feels liberating, even slightly edgy, to turn it off. No traffic on the sea so really no need for it.

You can turn a plotter off too. But I’d say there may be advantages for the kids in having a plotter from my experience:
- they seem to actually get a better spacial awareness of where we’ve been. Unless you are going to bring the charts up to the cock pit.
- a plotter with AIS seems to generate interesting discussions about what the boats are that they can see, and where coming from / going to.
- the plotter doesn’t need to just be chart view you can have a rolling road etc which some people prefer to steer to
- I might be wrong but I think if they do any qualification they’ll need to use a plotter now? In which case might as well teach them when it’s good/bad.
- if they get on anyone else’s boat / charter boat it’s bound to have a plotter (and possibly no paper charts/dividers/parallel rules etc)
- it’s a fun excercise for the kids to fix their position the old way and see how close they get to the plotter
- I’m not sure how old the kids are but once old enough to trust leaving them on the helm with a plotter screen whilst you put the Kettle on is more reassuring you’ll still be on track when you bring the hot chocolate on deck
- not every kid will find a chart and pencil exciting! I’m absolutely delighted that my daughter is really interested and will do her DS theory next year but she’s done that despite have grown up with plotters.
- you can usually zoom or click on an item to check what it is - I think for 2020s kids that’s probably more intuitive way of learning than asking dad!

 

[Daverw]

Could the plan make your insurance company nervous ?

 

[dunedin]

Not sure it is a good idea if intended "to teach your kids". Very soon paper charts will be unavailable for many / most waters. UKHO withdrawing all paper by 2026.
Also depends where planning to sail. Relatively easy for GGR types as mostly away from hazards in deep sea.
Amongst Swedish or Scottish rocks on a cloudy or misty day it would be borderline reckless to approach shore without decent navigation. With no tech, in days of yore the safe approach was heave to or sail offshore till visibility improved (or join the long list of shipwrecks of those who got it wrong).
Old ways also need old ways of not trying to keep to a fixed schedule.

 

[PhillM]

I have recently changed my mind on this. I’m less worried about prosecution but more my moral responsibility to keep other people safe by all available means when on board my boat or at sea alongside it.

The problem with the “old ways” is which “old ways” do you hark back to? Yes in the GGR days of old people used oil lamps and mark1 eyeball. So did ships (the eyeball that is) and they had more crew to do it. Now he ships rely so much on the tech to not be able to be seen by it is less safe than to be transmitting in a way they can avoid you.

I think that as technology has changed expectations, risk assessments need to change in line with the new behaviours that have become the norm (E.g. less crew and less looking out of the windows by the big stuff).

 

[ylop]

No sure it is a good idea if intended "to teach your kids". Very soon paper charts will be unavailable for many / most waters. UKHO withdrawing all paper by 2026.

UKHO are stopping printing in 4 yrs but others will continue. I think it’s wrong to even say paper charts will be unavailable for some never mind many waters.

Also depends where planning to sail. Relatively easy for GGR types as mostly away from hazards in deep sea.
Amongst Swedish or Scottish rocks on a cloudy or misty day it would be borderline reckless to approach shore without decent navigation.

Interesting - I’ve always assumed paper nav was easier in Scottish waters because they were quite quiet so you could plan a route to stick to / clearing bearings etc then follow it. In busy waters you’d be constantly having to revise the plan when you make course changes for other vessels.

did sailors of old just heave to for fear of hitting the bottom or was it that usually mist comes with no wind and so they had little choice?

 

[Adios]

The problem with the “old ways” is which “old ways” do you hark back to?

My first couple of boats was before any GPS but I was coast hoping in sight of land and bouys to follow. Still managed a few night passages. Small boats with no depth or log. Then the next bigger boats by then I had a hand held GPS to use with charts but its not much easier to transfer the position to the chart than triangulating points so I'd still do that rather than always rely on the GPS. For a tricky passage possible to enter waypoints off the chart and it would give a course to steer. I think that was the sweat spot of enough tech to aid without taking over entirely and my handheld VHF provides the same level of GPS if needed.

The last boat I had came with a plotter but no detailed charts of the area i sailed it so I used it similarly entering waypoints and using it to give a course to steer but relying on charts to know where I was and what was there.

Not sure why I'm always such a luddite. I really do have an issue with trying to keep away from using screens, he says while typing on one

 

[Adios]

You can turn a plotter off too. But I’d say there may be advantages for the kids in having a plotter from my experience:
- they seem to actually get a better spacial awareness of where we’ve been. Unless you are going to bring the charts up to the cock pit.
- a plotter with AIS seems to generate interesting discussions about what the boats are that they can see, and where coming from / going to.
- the plotter doesn’t need to just be chart view you can have a rolling road etc which some people prefer to steer to
- I might be wrong but I think if they do any qualification they’ll need to use a plotter now? In which case might as well teach them when it’s good/bad.
- if they get on anyone else’s boat / charter boat it’s bound to have a plotter (and possibly no paper charts/dividers/parallel rules etc)
- it’s a fun excercise for the kids to fix their position the old way and see how close they get to the plotter
- I’m not sure how old the kids are but once old enough to trust leaving them on the helm with a plotter screen whilst you put the Kettle on is more reassuring you’ll still be on track when you bring the hot chocolate on deck
- not every kid will find a chart and pencil exciting! I’m absolutely delighted that my daughter is really interested and will do her DS theory next year but she’s done that despite have grown up with plotters.
- you can usually zoom or click on an item to check what it is - I think for 2020s kids that’s probably more intuitive way of learning than asking dad!

Yes charts in folios in cockpit is how i've always done it, mostly single handed. If theres a screen the kids eyes will be glued to it and they'll expect it to have all the answers. I think its vital they learn the hard way before the easy was is offered and its zero trouble later using a plotter if they come across one.

 

[Stemar]

Even if you don't want a plotter cluttering up the place, Navionics or one of the other apps on your phone would be a useful safety precaution. A bit like a liferaft, you've no intention of using it, but if you need it, you'll be damned glad you have it. Unforecast fog is far from unknown, and it would be a shame to emulate Sir Cloudsley.

 

[Stingo]

@GHA isn't this the sort of sailing that you're planning on doing, if you ever manage to get your rust bucket back into the briny

 

[Supertramp]

There is a lot to be said for your approach as it helps develop the judgement and skills that will avoid difficulties and disaster. I think that having proper rescue equipment is desirable, even if its never used. And while I use traditional methods to sail and navigate the use of a plotter or Navionics when exploring new or little used anchorages is a real help. And as said in poor visibility or at night.

 

[rotrax]

To put this into context, I have maintained for some time that most sailing around the UK is basic pilotage, not navigation.

A very well known Yachting mag contributor, passage maker and boat designer, once went on a trip to the West Country from the Hamble. Crew was two married couples.

He stated, very bluntly" Navigating to Newlyn from the Solent is simple. Give all headlands and known tide races the offing the pilot book suggests, and going West, keep the land on your right, when coming home, the land on your left.

And, it really is as simple as that.

First Mate and my cruise to Londonderry was made far simpler by the plotter. We could have achieved it without, but it would have been far more stressful, plenty of bearings taken, chartwork, estimating how far off we were, identifying the correct channel markers and cardinal marks.

Concerto's trip too. His basic electronic set up added to his solo effort, keeping him fresher and less stressed, iI'm sure.

If the OP intends serious passage making a plotter and AIS will be of great benifit. If cruising in known waters he is familiar with, not so much.

Do you think Drake or Columbus would have turned one down had they been available?