Sailing off into the sunset - advice needed

[ColdFusion]

We are a couple with no children in our mid/late thirties who are looking for something more than another 20-30 years of keeping up with the rat race, and battling against the British weather.

We currently own two houses with a minimum of £180,000 total equity, have savings of approximately £13,000 and one of us has already made provision for a reasonable pension fund (the other has a much smaller pension fund). We do not currently own a boat but do have some sailing experience (e.g. dayskipper including a 7-day offshore passage. Planning to do yachtmaster theory this year).

Although we are seriously considering sailing off into the sunset we are questioning whether this will leave us destitute in old age, given the fact we are still in our 30s and still have a good few years of our working lives left.

The questions we have are:
1) Is living aboard and sailing off into the sunset realistic given our age and financial position?
2) What options do we have regarding finances, which give us the chance to take this opportunity without blowing a financially secure future?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice offered.

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[Strathglass]

The main advice I would give is not to sell one of your uk properties but let it out. This will then give you some hedge against inflation. House prices are still rising and will probably continue to do so. You may find yourselves financially locked out from returning to live in the uk in something like ten or twenty years time.

That is in my opinion.

Iain

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[tcm]

Re: Go cheap, go now

Agreed- don't sell the houses yet if ever.

If sailing and owning a sailing boat is new to you, get something manageable 2nd hand of course and cheap to start off. Something a bit fixupble, Westerleyish or whatever. Under 30 feet is too small. Otherwise bigger is more comfy of course. At the moment it would be great to find a boat being sold in dollars, as the dollar is weak, whereas the Pound is relatively strong, the euro even stronger. Not sure where you plan to go, though.

Jobwise, it may be an idea to negotiate a 6-month or even 1-year sabbatical, if you can. That way you can see if you can stand living like a seagoing gipsy (gypsey?or not, without entirely writing yourself out of the job market. maybe. Depends what your jobs are at the moment.

The sabatical idea is also quite good to see if you are cut out for it, whether you really want to do it for years and years, or not. I think also that buying a big expensive boat may bring too much pressure to "do it". Note that there's loads of boatfixers and gear suppliers in lots of other places, so you don't need to load up with absolutely everytghing right at the start.

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[Twister_Ken]

Down the page

You might consider posting this ? on liveaboard link, another YBW forum further down the 'main index' page.

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[ParaHandy]

2p worth .... suppose you want to "retire" in 25yrs time with the equivalent of £20k income (in todays money), you'll need liquid assets of £1m in 25 yrs time from an asset pot worth today at least £170k and you must achieve an annual return of 7.5% over the next 25 yrs (RPI assumed 3%) .... any deferred pension asset would add to this ... and you still need something to live on


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[sea_hobbit]

ColdFusion - sounds like you're suffering from Cold Feet! Definitely the way to do it is to keep at least one of the properties and rent it out (both if poss) - that way you have a rental income as you are sailing, your capital investment should increase as time goes by and if for whatever reason the whole sailing idea turns sour (it does happen!) then you can return to the UK without being homeless.
A friend & I rented out both our properties in 1995 in order to sail off into the sunset and this give us the flexibility and financial stability we required to alter our arrangements - instead of just going for 1 year as initially planned, we popped back to the UK did some contract work, and then continued....several years later I returned to ventures new whilst he is still busy spending 6 months in the UK working then 6 on the boat.
You're in an ideal and enviable situation - so go for it.


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[bedouin]

There is a classic book by Bill Cooper called "Sell up and Sail" that is definitely worth reading.

Are you thinking of sailing off for good or just taking a sabbatical for a few years?

If your pension fund is already big enough to provide what you would regard as a satisfactory retirement income then it may be achieveable, but you will be pushing it to buy and equip a boat and have enough to live on long term given your current capital. If of course you have a way of generating additional income while sailing then it all becomes a lot easier.

If you want a serious recommendation then work your way into it - get the boat, get it equipped and then go on an extended cruise (6-12 months) to see if you really enjoy the lifestyle and to see how much it costs you to live.

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[wayneA]

Hi ColdFusion

My wife and I are both in our thirties (33 & 34), no kids, and we’re about to quit the rat race and sail off in the very near future. We plan to sail indefinitely, and no intention to come back, but who knows what will happen in a year, 5 years, or even 20 years. To be honest, with the state of the pension industry, I have no faith that my pension will pay out in 35 years, so we have tried to plan independently for this.

FWIW – I’ve outlined our thinking below which has developed from research and chatting with other cruisers over the past 2 years. Of course, we haven’t set sail yet and put this thinking into practice, so it could be complete tosh!

We reckon on needing an annual income of about £12000 year, for our type of boat and style of cruising that we wish to do. I believe this annual cost can be a lot lower (read the Annie Hill books) depending on your expectations and style of cruising, but feel this is a good realistic mid figure. We will start out in the Med, finding our feet and getting into the lifestyle, and then expand to a full circumnavigation.

To achieve £12k income we have sold our larger 4-bed house, and brought a smaller 2-bed that will be easier to rent. We want to keep a foot on the property ladder, as it would be very difficult to get back on, if the cruising lifestyle didn’t suit. Also over a long-term period I’m hoping on the capital growth from property later in life. The initial plan was to have 2 properties – both rented – but with the current saturation in the ‘buy-to-let’ market we’ve decided to put the other capital into a low risk investment such as bonds. On top of these we will pick up work as we find, but will count this as a bonus.

We will also plan to have an easily accessible, emergency cash fund– just in case anything happens to us, or the boat, which quickly requires a lump sum.

The other large capital expenditure is buying the actual boat. We have opted for a boat in the smaller range, at 35ft, and an older design with a good ocean-going reputation. We tend to like the older designs anyway. This has lead us to buying an older used boat with hull & spars in very good condition, and completely striping it down and refitting for bluewater. This will give us an ocean going boat with all new interior, rig and equipment (that we want/choose) for about £70k.

As others have mentioned, before getting in to deep, make sure this lifestyle is for you. I’ve been sailing from a small boy and have dreamed of sailing off for 20 years. My wife and I have been fully committed to this the past few years. I’d suggest maybe buying a smaller boat to cruise locally first, one that you can easily sell. This will help you discover what type of sailing and type of boat suits you, and get more experience, before investing in the final boat.

I’d recommend any of the Pardey’s ‘sail away’ books – especially ‘Cost Conscious Cruiser’ and ‘Self Sufficient Sailor’, as they both started cruising early in life with little capital behind them – To quote the Pardeys, ‘Go small – Go now’.

Hope this is of interest. Good luck.

Wayne


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[Robin]

Just had the January Tax holdup from Dick Turpin alias Gordon Brownie and realised I have worked the last 6 months just for HM bl***y G. Go now before the b******s take it all. We have a pension (!) with Equitable Lifeless, a mortgage endowment with Standard Lifeless - if we had gone 10 years ago we would be better off! If you can afford to go now then do, you can always come back as asylum seekers and live better than most pensioners.


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[ongolo]

I cant say how much you need in the med of course, but there are places away from europe where you live well for GBP100,- per month and very well for GBP200,- per month.

Mind you that is if neither of you drink or smoke, that will make a big dent in the finances.

As far as work goes, any brit can make a living almost anywhere by giving english lessons.

Go for it, the blairs and the bushes destroying all that is still good on this planet, go while you can.

Incidently, the least expensive places are often the most beautiful because lack of industry or civilisation. No matter where you are and what you do, learn to cook well. If you sleep well, eat well and have basic hygene you live, if you get books to read to keep your mind you live well.

maybe I see you one day in the indian ocean. Look out for KOWIE (being the Khoi language and meaning "rushing water"

I cannot see how you can spend GBP12k per year.

Here it is not thaaaat cheap, but I give you some examples:

1 GPB will buy you one of the follong:
3.3 liter petrol
12 eggs
3 x 500ml Coke
3 loafs of bread
2.5kg sugar
20 of the best crisp bread rolls you ever had
250g of imported german butter or 500g of the better Margarine (which I prefer normally for it does neither get as stiff when cold nor rancid when not cold as butter)
2 x 410g choice grade peas or 2 x green beans french cut
20 Cigarettes like styvesant - Camel or Marlboro a little more expensive
3 x bottles of beer or 750ml Old Brwon sherry or .5 liter excellent South African wine

3kg of potatoes depending on season or almost 10kg of oranges
200g of beef fillet or 1kg of chicken and of about 350g of most common meats such as chops etc.

Oats to make the basis for a muesli will be about 1kg per 1GPB
60 boxes of matches or 2 liter of parafine (?? bloody spelling?? being tri-lingual)
2 x 100g of ground black pepper or 200g of the fines crushed garlic
2 kg of Oryx meat (large game antelop)
1.8kg of baking flour
To develop and print 35 colour pictures would be GBP4,- and batteries Duracell for a digital camera GBP3,- which is probably not less than in the UK.

In Daar es Salam, you can hire a servant/body guard with assagai and kiri (speer and club) that watches over you and carries your shopping bag for about GBP1,- per day.

Get the idea? If some of it sounds strange, remember EU is not the rest of the world.

Hope it "turns you on"

regards ongolo



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[Rowana]

Er..... Have I missed the point of your post? You say that you are going to sail off in the near future in an older design of boat, so why is your boat for sale ???



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[wishbone]

Hi If you are serious I can only give some facts that may help !
keep at least 1 property in the uk for a rental this can also be used
for a bolt hole if you need to return to the UK even for medical
care. Keep enough funds available to make a quick return to the
UK if needed.
My wife and I are now 52 last year we changed our business operation
After the tax man relieved us of £42k we are now at the crossroads of
Leaving the UK. Over Christmas 2002 my one and only best friend and
I was discussing the future which we are now following, my friend died
3 months ago of cancer. All his plans have gone with him………

If you stop and think about it you wont do it. Nothing is for ever
If you can cut the cloth then go for it.

Wishbone
Rolling, rolling, rolling keep them doggies moving!
Where’s me chuck wagon gone?


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[Magic_Sailor]

You go down Southampton Water

and turn right just as the evening is coming on

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Magic

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[Sailfree]

While other will recommend go for it, I hope you do but only after both of you appreciate what I suspect are some deep fundamental challenges for possibly both you and the other half. Like you I wish to go off sailing but I am not underestimating some difficulties/differences. I believe familiarity gives many people comfort and it is change that causes the most stress. Hence the statement that bereavement/divorce/moving job and/or house causes the most stress. For this reason we are initially going for a 3 month cruise to the Med in 2004. If we enjoy that we will probably try the ARC/RAC in 2005/2006 but unless we are completely taken by the experience we will take it a step at a time. Why?

I am mindful of going on holiday and thinking its wonderful to live there yet after careful consideration is/was it wonderful for a 2 week change/rest but for 2 months? 2 years? it might become a total bore.

For the majority of us our work has taken up a large part of our time both in yrs and hours per week and often become a major part of our lives. For the fortunate amongst us we have either enjoyed it or for some learnt to enjoy it. For some the person they are is their job! I know of one SWMBO who introduced her husband as "and this is my husband ...who is a bank manager". For this reason some feel a loss of identity when they retire. Hence the number that die quickly, within years of retiring.

Going off sailing is a change of lifestyle/identity and probably challenges your sense of values. The person with the knowledge of resusitation or sailing off a lee shore in heavy weather at the appropriate time has more value on the boat than the person who is used to always commanding respect at work.

Providing you can adjust and afford the new lifestyle those that retire early have a far better prognosis for life expectancy than those that continue working especially as nearly all jobs involve stress - some to a greater degree than others.

Advice on this forum has already stressed the importance of keeping a toehold in the property market in this country as realistically we will need greater healthcare at some time as we get older. Unfortunatly I don't see other countries (including the EEC) being as stupid as ours and give away their healthcare system free to visitors.

For these reasons I have decided to start changing lifestyle this year and meet the new challenges and try to do those things I have never had the time to do. If I can combine this with short periods of work to boost the retirement fund it would be good. This way I hope we will slowly evolve into a different lifestyle and really enjoy it. Although I cannot think it applicable to us I can understand some people missing the garden or Coronation Street. It is even sadder for those that are too proud to admit they missed the familiar surroundings of home and say the different life style was not for them.

One added bonus will be paying less tax and I believe our government will in the next few years take an even greater proportion of our earnings.

As you can detect I am really concerned that going off sailing and only having to buy food and pay boat maintenance bills will leave me sleepless at night as to what I will do with all the money I have left by not paying VAT, Income Tax, National Insurance, Council Tax, Utility Bills, TV licence, Car Tax, Petrol Tax etc.
In fact the sooner this government bring in a mooring rope tax for all British registered boats wherever they be the better I will sleep!

I hope you enjoy whatever life you decide on but better a considered decision than a rash one.

To ensure my success I am marrying a counsellor who will help me adjust to spending £5 for ever £100 in the UK and walking across oceans as they will be full of Forum contributors sailing off into the sunset and we will all only be able to step from one boat to another. Will yours be one of the boats we all step on?

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[ongolo]

All you say is true,

but mo matter what you do when you sail, there is a risk involved and a risk means adventure, otherwise if you are not prepared to take a risk, stay at home.

Everything has its price, so has the freedom.

I see that some people here need to have their life's laid out in advance. If one functions this way, such rigidness is detrimental to having fun. What happende to the spirit of the explorer, did Cook have healthcare benefits? Guys go on mtorcycles around the world, which is less comfortable and much more risky.

The important thing is the mental makeup, and I would have my doubts about taking some of the people here with me. But then I have been accused that just to go camping with me is a survivel course for the average person.

regards ongolo

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[wayneA]

Hi Jim

>"so why is your boat for sale ???"

Quite simple - I own 2 boats. One is for sale the other is not!

Take care

Wayne

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[Sailfree]

I agree and perhaps the Purdy's advice "Go small, go now" is more relevant for Coldfusion however for most being able to sail a largish boat reflects reasonable success in life and the necessary gathering of assets which I suggest for most of us the yacht comes after the house, pension and probably some small investments. Decisions are always easy when there is nothing to lose/risk.

I believe that for some the idea of sailing off will always be a dream, for others a carefully considered decision. For Coldfusion a few more sea miles under both their belts might put them in a better position to evaluate what they want to do and how.

What I was suggesting is that a carefully considered decision based on experience has more chance of success. I would hate Coldfusion to make a hasty one with encouragement from Forum members to effectively vacariously live that members dream and as you suggest a dream that many may never realise due to the risks but more possibly from having currently a very comfortable life style.

I have unfortunatly known a number of friends/colleagues who have lost in life's biggest lottery and are no longer able to sail. That is my biggest encouragement to dong it soon while we are still fit. This keeps me focused. Its not money you are risking but something more valuable - how you choose to spend the finate time we all have.

Now if only I knew how much time that was !!!

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[ParaHandy]

what would be ideal is if you sailed off as a British citizen and returned 25 or 30 years later as a european citizen of eg Italy/France. I say this because this removes the pension problem. Most european pensions are funded from state revenue - none of this stuffing cash into funds which may or may not invest in the enrons of this world - and you will have to fulfill the qualifications for benefit and these vary from state to state.

the danger is that on your return, retirement age is likely to be advanced to 70 or even 75 but the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages. it might even conceivably be possible that the uk will fund all pensions from state revenue. that's unlikely as a snowball's chance in hell but you never know ...

you seem to be ideally placed to achieve this - no attachments to the UK.

to achieve citizenship you can either arrange employment - the dutch are particularly awkward in that you would have to prove the employment can not be filled by a dutch national - or live there for a number of years prior to age 65 (but cf retirement age provision and the qualification period varies ie 5yrs france, 15 for holland).

transferring your assets out of the uk which must include all domicile and residence as defined by the IR could bring on its own significant benefits. unlike other correspondents, i disagree with renting the house out in the uk. relying on uk rental income is fraught with problems. uk occupancy averages 80% which either means you have to return frequently to re-let or use an agent. neither is satisfactory. most other european countries are oriented towards renting rather than ownership and Brown is softening up the uk property owning democracy for something nasty - the tax loss is just too huge. I suggest you consider investing in property and renting in the EU country of your choice other than UK.

so, where is this nirvanna? Netherland Antilles has always taken my fancy. there's a decent off-shore tax shelter, its warm, good position between cuba and venezuela and offers possibilities for cruising elsewhere ... but there are many more bolt-holes owned by the italians, french etc to chose from

do i know if any of this will work .. afraid not. nobody i know is prepared to think that far ahead but it might be possible ....

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[ccscott49]

you have certainly got me thinking!

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[Guest]

i,m half way there

well dude

me and her indoors, me 40 she 37 bought a new boat 6 months ago, bavaria 38 for about 80,000 sterling. , fully fitted.
we liv in spain and we both earn peanuts in this cheap labor, costa del sol place.. we just finished paying of our house, valued at 350,000 euros, and decided to buy a boat, as i need 2 be in debt as i am a lazy git and the debt will make me work. we have both never sailed before apart from the odd trip on a pleasure boat. well we both now reckon it was the best decision we have ever made. cant afford to go of into the sunset just yet. as i definately do not want 2 step of this property ladder. we have long weekends on the boat every weekend, and it has rejuvinated us, we dream of 12w months cruising (minimum) so now we r both scheeming 2 make it hapen,,,do it while u can is my motto,,,, but keep sumfin in reserve...

good luck, see u in the med



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