Sailing allowed in lockdown

[capnsensible]

You could write to the CMA to let them know they got it wrong, in your opinion.

I've no strong opinion on whether the UKCMA have called this right or not, but I'm not convinced that a marina that can't/won't allow the boats to leave carries the same value as a marina that can/will allow boats to leave. And if it doesn't the cottage analogy works perfectly well. The marina cannot provide the service it's being paid for, in just the same way that the holiday cottage can't. It can provide a portion of the service, but not all of it.

The marina continues to provide the service of a dock for your boat. Regardless of wether you use it or not. Or a global pandemic restricts travel. Try asking for a discount for that in a Spanish Marina. The sound of laughing is the same in both languages.

 

[jordanbasset]

Also before you bought your home you knew the council tax obligations before entering into sale , but with the marinas covid has become an unusable and unique event, which then needs case law to look at it as it has not happened in such a scale

Sorry I don't follow your logic there. Covid also made second homes unusable, so using your argument surely they should be treated the same as your boat in the marina.
For the record I don't think either should get a refund, it was just unfortunate that Covid and Government rules/advice prevented them being used

 

[FlyingGoose]

Sorry I don't follow your logic there. Covid also made second homes unusable, so using your argument surely they should be treated the same as your boat in the marina.
For the record I don't think either should get a refund, it was just unfortunate that Covid and Government rules/advice prevented them being used

A home is taxed in this country a boat is not (vat not included )
The property tax is a tax on the house cost in 1991 and it’s banding, live in it do not live in it , you still pay the tax,
The circle of life in regards to taxes and why it happens is way beyond me , I just pay the tax man ,
That was one thing I was always told to do .
Council tax is a tax , the marina costs are a contract so I assume they will fall under different legislation, and no doubt some very rich second home owners may have attempted case law on this but i m in no mood to look it up but they would have lost
For the record on this I got a small discount on a free lift out and washed down and put in , after I asked, ,well I got the wife to ask or I would has just shouted .
Anyways I was not looking for a set amount, or cash value , but as a customer service industry no matter what the problem is , it is good sense To keep ones customer happy.
I suppose you could argue I was looking for a win or my ego got in the way, but this was not the case , a box of choclates would have been accepted , I have been a GM of many a hotel hospitality venue , the client is never wrong and this small gesture by my marina , has made me coff up next years fees instead of leaving . Everyone is a winner

 

[Capt Popeye]

Presumably you also condemn their decision that if I had booked a holiday cottage in the lakes over Easter I am due a refund?

YES certainly, no holiday accomodated no wear n tear no cleaning no useage = refunds

 

[Lucky Duck]

The marina continues to provide the service of a dock for your boat. Regardless of wether you use it or not. Or a global pandemic restricts travel. Try asking for a discount for that in a Spanish Marina. The sound of laughing is the same in both languages.

So you keep saying.

While it is a perfectly understandable point of view, less so is continuing to argue discounts aren't due despite having been told that thousands of customers have already received them and that the position in the UK is clear.

No doubt those who keep thier boats in Spain will bear your advice in mind.

 

[capnsensible]

Great con trick, be happy. Bet your pontoon provider will jack up next years prices to get the wonga back. You won't win in the long run and all the time that there are waiting lists, it would seem likely that the stroppiest renters may find they can't renew their contract. Short gain, long pain.

Those of us that keep our boats in Spanish marinas don't need the advice......

 

[NotBirdseye]

Great con trick, be happy. Bet your pontoon provider will jack up next years prices to get the wonga back. You won't win in the long run and all the time that there are waiting lists, it would seem likely that the stroppiest renters may find they can't renew their contract. Short gain, long pain.

Those of us that keep our boats in Spanish marinas don't need the advice......

We can change providers.

 

[Mark-1]

Great con trick, be happy. Bet your pontoon provider will jack up next years prices to get the wonga back. You won't win in the long run and all the time that there are waiting lists, it would seem likely that the stroppiest renters may find they can't renew their contract. Short gain, long pain.

Those of us that keep our boats in Spanish marinas don't need the advice......

So what the problem? UK Berth holders would welcome a partial refund and we're getting one, Spanish berth holders don't want a refund and aren't getting one.

Sounds like the legal systems of both countries have got it right for their populations.

 

[tugger]

In regards to second homes and council tax , the law is diffrent as each council can set their rules for second homes, their argument being that you reduce the council coffers by taking up housing stock and then not paying any money towards the area, but then expect to enjoy it at your leisure or rent it out to make money.
This might seem non concerning were only 5% of homes are holiday let’s ,but there are places decimated by more than one third of homes being a holiday let, and that’s one third of revenue taken away.

Just going to park this here... for no other reason than it made me laugh

 

[CLB]

I wonder if a marina's obligation will depend upon whether they restricted access or not. If the marina stayed open, but people didn't go because of government advice/rules, would the martina still need to offer recompense? I bet some marinas are starting to regret their stance during the lockdown if that turns out to be the case, and they will certainly be reluctant to help the government keep people at home if we have another lockdown.

 

[capnsensible]

So what the problem? UK Berth holders would welcome a partial refund and we're getting one, Spanish berth holders don't want a refund and aren't getting one.

Sounds like the legal systems of both countries have got it right for their populations.

Except you guys have peed on your own doorstep.

 

[dom]

Except you guys have peed on your own doorstep.

There is no pissing on anybody's doorstep, simply the application of English law and specifically the Law Reform Act 1943 dealing with frustrated contracts. The extent to which a marina contract has been frustrated by coronavirus in turn depends on the balance between providing a contracted space to store the boat and making available a number of amenities for the berth holder to enjoy.

Ultimately only a competent court can decide how the law applies to specific contracts and circumstances, but a marina would have a hard job arguing on the one hand that it was going ahead and providing full customer services, while on the other claiming an array of government grants and subsidies including abundant usage of the furlough scheme.

The marina can however lawfully charge an ongoing contribution to its costs until such time as service provision is resumed, but this only applies where the contract terms “set this out clearly and fairly and the consumer is free to end the free to end the contract if they do not wish to pay these fees.” A route few marinas chose to adopt.

The CMA fires a final parting shot across the bows of UK businesses: “Consumers should be treated fairly by businesses, and not misled about their rights. The CMA is unlikely to object to the parties seeking to reach an arrangement that is mutually acceptable in the circumstances, provided that consumers are not left in a worse position where they have sought to find a resolution in this way.”

Reliable sources inform me that most UK marinas will end up roughly whole from the coronavirus hit assuming occupancy stays up. Government support schemes have basically covered the cost of refunds.

What could be fairer than that? And fairness is what the CMA demands

 

[tugger]

Great con trick, be happy. Bet your pontoon provider will jack up next years prices to get the wonga back. You won't win in the long run and all the time that there are waiting lists, it would seem likely that the stroppiest renters may find they can't renew their contract. Short gain, long pain.

Those of us that keep our boats in Spanish marinas don't need the advice......

I have to agree, If I were in the position of being a marina operator and the choice was presented to me of having berth holders who wanted to screw the company over (by invariably the same ones who wanted to wheedle their way to finding spurious reasons go out and about to suit their own selfish needs anyway) during a nationally recognised lockdown (which the marina operator was doing their best to maintain because of some sense of moral obligation (I'll leave out the part about the debatable legal implications of being seen to welcome berth holders on site ))... and a waiting list of possibilities, I know what I'd be doing. ?

 

[capnsensible]

I have to agree, If I were in the position of being a marina operator and the choice was presented to me of having berth holders who wanted to screw the company over (by invariably the same ones who wanted to wheedle their way to finding spurious reasons go out and about to suit their own selfish needs anyway) during a nationally recognised lockdown (which the marina operator was doing their best to maintain because of some sense of moral obligation (I'll leave out the part about the debatable legal implications of being seen to welcome berth holders on site ))... and a waiting list of possibilities, I know what I'd be doing. ?

Absolutely. In this case, the few people in the UK who own yachts and wish to rent a place to keep them have benefitted in the short term from loophole lawyers. The boats are safe and secure, which is what they are paying for, regardless of use. To pretend otherwise is taking the p.......

 

[Lucky Duck]

There is no pissing on anybody's doorstep, simply the application of English law and specifically the Law Reform Act 1943 dealing with frustrated contracts. The extent to which a marina contract has been frustrated by coronavirus in turn depends on the balance between providing a contracted space to store the boat and making available a number of amenities for the berth holder to enjoy.

Ultimately only a competent court can decide how the law applies to specific contracts and circumstances, but a marina would have a hard job arguing on the one hand that it was going ahead and providing full customer services, while on the other claiming an array of government grants and subsidies including abundant usage of the furlough scheme.

The marina can however lawfully charge an ongoing contribution to its costs until such time as service provision is resumed, but this only applies where the contract terms “set this out clearly and fairly and the consumer is free to end the free to end the contract if they do not wish to pay these fees.” A route few marinas chose to adopt.

The CMA fires a final parting shot across the bows of UK businesses: “Consumers should be treated fairly by businesses, and not misled about their rights. The CMA is unlikely to object to the parties seeking to reach an arrangement that is mutually acceptable in the circumstances, provided that consumers are not left in a worse position where they have sought to find a resolution in this way.”

Reliable sources inform me that most UK marinas will end up roughly whole from the coronavirus hit assuming occupancy stays up. Government support schemes have basically covered the cost of refunds.

What could be fairer than that? And fairness is what the CMA demands

This thread has taken rather a bizarre turn.

We know that the thousand of berth holders who keep their boats at MDL, Premier and Boatfolk marinas have had their accounts credited and we also know that the regulatory body says that least a partial refund is due and yet some keep posting here demonising those very berth holders.

Utterly bizarre.

I have to agree, If I were in the position of being a marina operator and the choice was presented to me of having berth holders who wanted to screw the company over (by invariably the same ones who wanted to wheedle their way to finding spurious reasons go out and about to suit their own selfish needs anyway) during a nationally recognised lockdown (which the marina operator was doing their best to maintain because of some sense of moral obligation (I'll leave out the part about the debatable legal implications of being seen to welcome berth holders on site ))... and a waiting list of possibilities, I know what I'd be doing. ?

Can we assume you didn't read the contributions noting that the major marina operators have already credited all their berth holders' accounts. Given that salient fact - how do you propose they discriminate in the way you advocate?

 

[Mark-1]

I have to agree, If I were in the position of being a marina operator and the choice was presented to me of having berth holders who wanted to screw the company over (by invariably the same ones who wanted to wheedle their way to finding spurious reasons go out and about to suit their own selfish needs anyway) during a nationally recognised lockdown (which the marina operator was doing their best to maintain because of some sense of moral obligation (I'll leave out the part about the debatable legal implications of being seen to welcome berth holders on site ))... and a waiting list of possibilities, I know what I'd be doing. ?

Maybe. But as a customer I've vowed to never keep my boat anywhere with a lock gate after this year. It's not just Corona Virus, there's lock maintainace and other unexpected closures. Thanks to the first class quality of the lockkeepers my kids regard transiting the lock as a big part of the fun (including an excuse to use the radio and wave at bystanders), but for me the lock is just a hassle and a liability.

I'm not at all sure marinas are full at the moment either. The boomer generation who paid for their sailing with the various property booms are gradually giving up sailing and future generations are more likely to charter. I don't think Marinas are struggling, but I don't think many have waiting lists either.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Maybe. But as a customer I've vowed to never keep my boat anywhere with a lock gate after this year. It's not just Corona Virus, there's lock maintainace and other unexpected closures. Thanks to the first class quality of the lockkeepers my kids regard transiting the lock as a big part of the fun (including an excuse to use the radio and wave at bystanders), but for me the lock is just a hassle and a liability.

I'm not at all sure marinas are full at the moment either. The boomer generation who paid for their sailing with the various property booms are gradually giving up sailing and future generations are more likely to charter. I don't think Marinas are struggling, but I don't think many have waiting lists either.

My marina offered up their standard boat show incentive of paying in September and get this year's rate so if they are going to shaft their existing berth holders then they will have already limited their available pool of shaftees

 

[tugger]

Ultimately only a competent court can decide how the law applies to specific contracts and circumstances, but a marina would have a hard job arguing on the one hand that it was going ahead and providing full customer services, while on the other claiming an array of government grants and subsidies including abundant usage of the furlough scheme.

Specifically with this in mind though, lets say a marina opted to furlough its yard and much of its office based staff, Anything carrying on in workshops would obviously grind to a halt but that wouldn't have a bearing because payment more than likely wouldn't be made until after completion of works, Chandleries and ancillary services would close but similarly this wouldn't be construed as an integral part of 'frustration' because the marina isn't obstructing access to the boat, however access may be restricted by the general understanding by everyone of the governmental guidance that travel should be undertaken only when essential. So unless the marina has closed and locked the gates who exactly has restricted access to the boats?

If however access to the rivers has been restricted then surely the issue is with the harbour authorities rather than the marinas, but because no one has a contract with the harbour authorities you'd be stuffed trying to get recompense from them.

 

[dom]

Specifically with this in mind though, lets say a marina opted to furlough its yard and much of its office based staff, Anything carrying on in workshops would obviously grind to a halt but that wouldn't have a bearing because payment more than likely wouldn't be made until after completion of works, Chandleries and ancillary services would close but similarly this wouldn't be construed as an integral part of 'frustration' because the marina isn't obstructing access to the boat, however access may be restricted by the general understanding by everyone of the governmental guidance that travel should be undertaken only when essential. So unless the marina has closed and locked the gates who exactly has restricted access to the boats?

If however access to the rivers has been restricted then surely the issue is with the harbour authorities rather than the marinas, but because no one has a contract with the harbour authorities you'd be stuffed trying to get recompense from them.

So many hypotheticals here - in fact the whole thread is a giant hypothetical!!

As it turned out, marinas have saved a ton of money by furloughing lock staff, fuel berth assistants, carpark attendants, cleaners, etc., not to mention saving money on trash collection, heating, water, rates, etc.

Add to the equation the many other government support measures - many of which required businesses to explicitly confirm that they were affected by the pandemic - and even the more avaricious operators realised that zero refunds + lots of support could land them in hot water. So they relented.

The key points here are: (a) this is now past tense, and (b) refunds were primarily a matter of English law and CMA enforcement and angry berth holders.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Just going to park this here... for no other reason than it made me laugh

Why is that my good felllow , you come on and make a stamtemt for drama yet my statement is true , in holiday hot spots one third or more of homes are taken up by second home owners
I find it hard that you think this statement is wrong , either you do not listen to radio watch news , documentaries or research anŷthing but happily play a fools game on a forum
Sad really , people get so aggravated by someone else knowing more than them it makes then into some forum warrior
Ho hum
It would be pointless pointing the facts or linking documentation to validate my own knowledge , because people like yourself feel threatened by the truth , and are blinkered to their own opinion . How does one expect knowledge to grow from a closed mind , perhaps you voted Tory