Sailing allowed in lockdown

[jimi]

Hmm.. I actually think he RYA progression of courses is excellent. I did a competent crew having never been on a sailing boat before, got hooked, did theory , Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper(as it was at the time) and Yachtmaster. I found each course and exam rewarding and very useful.

 

[Achosenman]

Hmm.. I actually think he RYA progression of courses is excellent. I did a competent crew having never been on a sailing boat before, got hooked, did theory , Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper(as it was at the time) and Yachtmaster. I found each course and exam rewarding and very useful.

I agree, I started with Comp Crew and ended up with Yachtmaster after completing a professional sail traing course. How else does someone without access to sailing boats or sailing learn and progress?

 

[Sandy]

No one said that the Yachtmaster or the Dayskipper are rubbish. But serious the majority of other courses are garbage designed to separate you from your money. As was said earlier, it's not that we don't think the RYA are useful it's that it has become a money making exercise full of mickymouse activities that aren't recognized, aren't 'commercially endorsed'.

I have a different view.

The optional courses are there to encourage people from any level to get on the water. I am fortunate enough to have sailed off and on all my life. These days I spend some time volunteering and meeting a group of people who have never been on a boat before, some have never seen the sea, and sail with them for a week quietly imparting the skills and knowledge that gets them to Competent Crew is fantastic both for them and me.

On a personal level I've always found navigation easy, both in the doing it with a chart, compass, pencil and Breton Plotter, and that sixth sense of knowing where I am. That subconscious calculation that some people just do and others can't. Therefore, doing the YM Theory was easy. Others can and do struggle and need to take a different route to getting the qualification.

A few weeks ago I did the RYA Radar course. Now I can read it all in a book, but I wanted to be able to spend a day with an instructor to work through the material and be able to ask questions. Getting those questions answered in a concise, logical way by an instructor who really did know his stuff saved me hours and hours trying to work it out for myself.

The other huge benefit of having a common way of teaching stuff, see the OXO thread, is that we can all get on a boat as a brand new crew who have never sailed before and do things, like an OXO and we all know how its done - well apart from those people who insist in putting in a locking hitch and supply my boat with Highland Park.

 

[Mark-1]

The optional courses are there to encourage people from any level to get on the water.

Which is great if you're a hardcore racer. Cruising people don't benefit from more people on the water - busier anchorages or mooring fees increasing with competition from new sailors.

 

[Achosenman]

How do "cruisers" learn to sail?

 

[NotBirdseye]

How do "cruisers" learn to sail when they need to care for someone every 12 hours.... *grumble grumble grumble*

I'll tell you how. They buy their own boat and go out there hardcore because there is pretty much no other way. I'm not sure this is entirely an RYA restriction but rather a belief that instructors have.

 

[Sandy]

Which is great if you're a hardcore racer. Cruising people don't benefit from more people on the water - busier anchorages or mooring fees increasing with competition from new sailors.

I'm not a racer. Don't see that many people on the water these days apart from when I venture to Lake Solent or France. Lake Solent can be quite scary with the number of vessels all using a small stretch of water.

 

[Sandy]

How do "cruisers" learn to sail?

We go sailing, some do RYA courses others use YouTube.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Interesting post from Motorboat Owner magazine

Following clarification of legislation from the Competition and Markets Authority, a major South-Coast marina operator has been told they must reimburse their berth holders for periods where they have not been able to access their vessels. A group claim against the berthing operator, which has yet to be named publicly, but have been named on other boating social media, is reported to have been upheld and have been instructed to refund their berth holders accordingly. The berth holders successfully argued that their agreement with the operator had been in force prior to the announcement of the initial Coronavirus lockdown. The operator had written to them in June 2020, informing them that they would receive no refund, arguing that the restrictions were 'beyond their control.' This was subsequently found unfair under Section 2 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

To date several Marina Operators have offered favorable refund and loyalty payments, with by far the best deal East Coast Boating has seen, proposed by MDL Marina's earlier in the year (13th May 2020), Meanwhile the Canal and Rivers Trust extended annual toll licenses to reflect the period of the initial lockdown.

When a person operates a private vessel under a license or toll, they form a contract with the operator which entitles them to operate their craft under the terms of that license. Likewise when a berthing agreement is made, it assumes free access and use - yet any restrictions placed upon those private owners as a result of regulation, does not absolve those Authorities and Operators from fulfilling the terms of their contracts, and therefore they are deemed to have become 'frustrated'. Coronavirus legislation does not absolve business owners from fulfilling these contracts therefore offering at least partial refunds to clients for the services they have not received has been deemed reasonable - and this has been demonstrated by some of the UK's larger operators. The CMA view is also likely to apply to Licensing Authorities.

The CMA state; ' if the service that can be provided would be radically different to what was agreed, for example, because lockdown laws or other restrictions would prevent key parts of the contract from being performed, then in most cases consumers should be entitled to a refund.'

 

[Never Grumble]

Interesting post from Motorboat Owner magazine

Following clarification of legislation from the Competition and Markets Authority, a major South-Coast marina operator has been told they must reimburse their berth holders for periods where they have not been able to access their vessels. A group claim against the berthing operator, which has yet to be named publicly, but have been named on other boating social media, is reported to have been upheld and have been instructed to refund their berth holders accordingly. The berth holders successfully argued that their agreement with the operator had been in force prior to the announcement of the initial Coronavirus lockdown. The operator had written to them in June 2020, informing them that they would receive no refund, arguing that the restrictions were 'beyond their control.' This was subsequently found unfair under Section 2 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

To date several Marina Operators have offered favorable refund and loyalty payments, with by far the best deal East Coast Boating has seen, proposed by MDL Marina's earlier in the year (13th May 2020), Meanwhile the Canal and Rivers Trust extended annual toll licenses to reflect the period of the initial lockdown.

When a person operates a private vessel under a license or toll, they form a contract with the operator which entitles them to operate their craft under the terms of that license. Likewise when a berthing agreement is made, it assumes free access and use - yet any restrictions placed upon those private owners as a result of regulation, does not absolve those Authorities and Operators from fulfilling the terms of their contracts, and therefore they are deemed to have become 'frustrated'. Coronavirus legislation does not absolve business owners from fulfilling these contracts therefore offering at least partial refunds to clients for the services they have not received has been deemed reasonable - and this has been demonstrated by some of the UK's larger operators. The CMA view is also likely to apply to Licensing Authorities.

The CMA state; ' if the service that can be provided would be radically different to what was agreed, for example, because lockdown laws or other restrictions would prevent key parts of the contract from being performed, then in most cases consumers should be entitled to a refund.'

just read that on my facebook feed, might be time to drop my marina operator an email about fees for earlier in the year.

 

[Mark-1]

"Likewise when a berthing agreement is made, it assumes free access and use - yet any restrictions placed upon those private owners as a result of regulation, does not absolve those Authorities and Operators from fulfilling the terms of their contracts, and therefore they are deemed to have become 'frustrated"

My marina closed the lock during lockdown. Does this mean that although I couldn't legally use my boat they were still obliged to allow me out if I wished and therefore they have to refund me for the period they didn't offer me the service in spite of the fact I couldn't legally avail myself of it? Or something else? If so, what?

 

[TernVI]

"Likewise when a berthing agreement is made, it assumes free access and use - yet any restrictions placed upon those private owners as a result of regulation, does not absolve those Authorities and Operators from fulfilling the terms of their contracts, and therefore they are deemed to have become 'frustrated"

My marina closed the lock during lockdown. Does this mean that although I couldn't legally use my boat they were still obliged to allow me out if I wished and therefore they have to refund me for the period they didn't offer me the service in spite of the fact I couldn't legally avail myself of it? Or something else? If so, what?

The marina still gave you the service of storing the boat.
You'd have been upset if they had said 'we are closed for lockdown. Take your boat away.'

It's actually easy to argue that the storage of your boat is a more valuable service during lockdowns than in normal times.

 

[Lucky Duck]

The marina still gave you the service of storing the boat.
You'd have been upset if they had said 'we are closed for lockdown. Take your boat away.'

It's actually easy to argue that the storage of your boat is a more valuable service during lockdowns than in normal times.

It might be easy to argue but the CMA disagree with you and it is their opinion, that at the very least a partial refund is due, which counts

 

[Lucky Duck]

"Likewise when a berthing agreement is made, it assumes free access and use - yet any restrictions placed upon those private owners as a result of regulation, does not absolve those Authorities and Operators from fulfilling the terms of their contracts, and therefore they are deemed to have become 'frustrated"

My marina closed the lock during lockdown. Does this mean that although I couldn't legally use my boat they were still obliged to allow me out if I wished and therefore they have to refund me for the period they didn't offer me the service in spite of the fact I couldn't legally avail myself of it? Or something else? If so, what?

From the article in post #89 you are due at least a partial refund for the period when access was denied (late March to early May).

My own marina was one of the first to offer a discount in a 50% refund in berthing fees for April but the MDL package has turned out to be more 'generous', but cannot remember what Premier's was.

This is consistent with earlier decisions made by the CMA relating to caravan sites which references has been made to in earlier threads.

Edit - In relation to caravan sites I understand the CMA's view was that where on site facilities such as entertainment or other hospitality were closed then a part refund was also due. This could apply where a marina has an on site Restaurant

 

[Mark-1]

From the article in post #89 you are due at least a partial refund for the period when access was denied (late March to early May).

Thanks, I'll do a bit more research and give it a go.

 

[Mark-1]

The marina still gave you the service of storing the boat.
You'd have been upset if they had said 'we are closed for lockdown. Take your boat away.'

It's actually easy to argue that the storage of your boat is a more valuable service during lockdowns than in normal times.

I don't make the rules.

 

[Never Grumble]

The marina still gave you the service of storing the boat.
You'd have been upset if they had said 'we are closed for lockdown. Take your boat away.'

It's actually easy to argue that the storage of your boat is a more valuable service during lockdowns than in normal times.

And my own business has been hammered by C-19 so why shouldn't the burden be shared.

 

[CLB]

With a marina you are paying for somewhere to park your boat. That continued right through lockdown, with many marinas taking on extra checks for owners who were not able to attend. I would say that refunds are not required. If marinas want to give a little sweetener, then great, but nothing more is needed IMHO

 

[Capt Popeye]

With a marina you are paying for somewhere to park your boat. That continued right through lockdown, with many marinas taking on extra checks for owners who were not able to attend. I would say that refunds are not required. If marinas want to give a little sweetener, then great, but nothing more is needed IMHO

I would say that your comments above are quite unfounded, afer all, the Marina is looking after your boat all the time its in their Marina, any external lock down does not effect that responsibility at all; any statement by said Marina Owners to prevent or restrict owners gaining access to their boats is surely on their heads alone, if Govt want to issue restrictive notices to us thats their job, but NOT the job of 'others' like Marinas, River Authorities, Harbour Authorities etc etc to interpret the Govt Rules in their own way ? Marinas and like should NOT have tried to take on what is essentially a Govt job; seres em right if it costs them

 

[capnsensible]

The marina still gave you the service of storing the boat.
You'd have been upset if they had said 'we are closed for lockdown. Take your boat away.'

It's actually easy to argue that the storage of your boat is a more valuable service during lockdowns than in normal times.

Spot on. Those drizzling for a refund are just trying it on in my opinion. And yes I have a yacht in a marina and its neither their fault nor mine that theres a global pandemic. My yacht still needs a berth whether I use it or not.