Sadler 29 or Nicholson 32

[Tranona]

mmmmm - well I never ... I never knew all that !!

I was responding directly to your post which said nothing about your "experience" so restricted myself to directly commenting on the relationship between size of boat and type/size recommendations. The limitations are little to do with how they are "set up" as you cannot change the power available and the response times although of course there are strategies for getting the best out of what is available.

There have been countless threads on here about the limitations of tiller pilots, many from very experienced people. Your final comment is simply not right in the absolute way you express it.

 

[Refueler]

I was responding directly to your post which said nothing about your "experience" so restricted myself to directly commenting on the relationship between size of boat and type/size recommendations. The limitations are little to do with how they are "set up" as you cannot change the power available and the response times although of course there are strategies for getting the best out of what is available.

There have been countless threads on here about the limitations of tiller pilots, many from very experienced people. Your final comment is simply not right in the absolute way you express it.

So just to be clear ... you are basically saying I'm talking out of my *** ....

I don't see anywhere my saying that Tillerpilots do not have limitations .. of course they do - so do wheel pilots ..

Seems you fail to grasp my opinion that many operators of autopilots regardless of wheel or in this case Tiller - fail to use full potential of settings. Many just setup for good weather and leave it like that and then expect it to cope with bad weather.

I have read so many posts over the years about TP's .. some are well worth the reading some are just operator failures. Like everything in this world .. you can either learn to use fully or just trundle along ....

 

[fredrussell]

…having been a user of all manner of auto's from piddly bungee to 500,000 ton ships systems ... maybe I might already be aware of limitations ?

Have you been on a tiller steered boat with a Raymarine Ev100 tiller pilot? It’s vastly more capable than an ‘old gen’ TP. Its obviously true when you say you need to set up an older TP to suit boat and conditions, but on the EV100 it just needs to be told whether you boat is sporty or cruiser and that’s it. It just learns the rest from the way your boat behaves when TP is steering. Sorry to be so evangelical, but it’s easily the best update I’ve made to my boat. Still not as good as a decent below-decks AP on a wheel steered boat, but way better than the older tiller pilots.

Apols to OP for thread drift!

 

[Refueler]

Have you been on a tiller steered boat with a Raymarine Ev100 tiller pilot? It’s vastly more capable than an ‘old gen’ TP. Its obviously true when you say you need to set up an older TP to suit boat and conditions, but on the EV100 it just needs to be told whether you boat is sporty or cruiser and that’s it. It just learns the rest from the way your boat behaves when TP is steering. Sorry to be so evangelical, but it’s easily the best update I’ve made to my boat. Still not as good as a decent below-decks AP on a wheel steered boat, but way better than the older tiller pilots.

Apols to OP for thread drift!

The ability of TP to adjust to conditions even goes back to my old AH800 and 1000 ... and the 2000 that i inherited with latest boat. But they do need user intervention to extract the most from as weather / sea state etc increases.

Like Tranona - seems that 'words are being put in my mouth' ... my post was that many do not actually use the full capability of settings OR understand that even such as my 800 - 1000 and 2000 will take a short period to automatically adjust when conditions change. They disengage and say the TP failed. When in fact it hasn't - its just adjusting and compensating ... to get back on course.

Telling your EV whether its Sporty or cruiser is just a step on from my 2000 - where I have 4 different settings for rudder ... ie heavy boat with small .. through to racer with powerful rudder. Even that 2000 will then 'find' its way to steer given the conditions. Of course electronics have moved on and improved - so the gear ought to react to conditions better .. if it didn't - then whats the point of the new gear ?

I do not say my old gear is as good ... that would be stupid. What I say is that if the operator takes the effort to learn what to do with the gear - its surprising what it will do.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

What is critical when using such wheel or tiller pilots is ensuring the sailplan is adjusted to the weather conditions no Tillerpilots will cope with a boat that is over canvassed.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I used a TP22 for 18days almost continuously from the UK to Valencia non stop. I can tell you for certain that the 10,22 and 32 do not learn anything but you can adjust their settings to suit the boat and conditions.

 

[Refueler]

What is critical when using such wheel or tiller pilots is ensuring the sailplan is adjusted to the weather conditions no Tillerpilots will cope with a boat that is over canvassed.

Thank you ... that is absolutely true .. and a TP will not be happy when improperly set - as in your Sporty - Cruiser or my Sea State / Rudder 1 to 4 ...

I have to be honest and say that there is only one aspect I would like with my TP's ... NMEA. They had the old Z box which was never any good .. a Pulse affair ... I had one and I could never get it to work ..

 

[johnalison]

We had a 2000 on our Sadler, which was perfectly adequate for motoring and m/sailing, which was all I required. I didn't have enough battery to want to use it for extended periods of sailing, which in any case I enjoyed. It would cope with basic sailing needs, but as you say, reducing sail may be needed and the advice was given in the instructions. This was before the days of things like solar panels. It would be overkill, at least financially, to put a sophisticated quadrant pilot on a Sadler, even if this is possible and if it were me I would be expecting quite long periods at the helm, as is my wont, for coastal sailing. My friend with the Nic 32 had a wind vane, but he was in the habit of very extended legs of days at a time, but he was an experience ex-merchant navy sailor who had done ocean crossings.

 

[Refueler]

I used a TP22 for 18days almost continuously from the UK to Valencia non stop. I can tell you for certain that the 10,22 and 32 do not learn anything but you can adjust their settings to suit the boat and conditions.

Glad I never had one of those then ....

Even my old 800 and 1000 have automatic Sea state control where the TP learns in the first minutes of engaged ... see this page >>

The 2000 is similar but you have more direct user adjustment as well.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

that's just filtering. They all do that. Ive used an ST1000 and it was useless compared to the TP22.
Edit to add that mine is fed by my N2K data so the filtering of heading variation is done by B&G Triton now also wind input is from the Triton too. The TP is great and Ive used it in all conditions always on extended passages as I sail mostly single handed offshore.

 

[Refueler]

We had a 2000 on our Sadler, which was perfectly adequate for motoring and m/sailing, which was all I required. I didn't have enough battery to want to use it for extended periods of sailing, which in any case I enjoyed. It would cope with basic sailing needs, but as you say, reducing sail may be needed and the advice was given in the instructions. This was before the days of things like solar panels. It would be overkill, at least financially, to put a sophisticated quadrant pilot on a Sadler, even if this is possible and if it were me I would be expecting quite long periods at the helm, as is my wont, for coastal sailing. My friend with the Nic 32 had a wind vane, but he was in the habit of very extended legs of days at a time, but he was an experience ex-merchant navy sailor who had done ocean crossings.

Hi ... I originally only picked up on this part because Tranona suggested guy go out and buy an ST2000 .. which is not cheap .. guy is buying a modest budget boat .. and I just wanted to pass on that there are Tiller Pilots out there that can do the job without breaking the bank. But as usual - someone wishes to make an issue of it ...

 

[Refueler]

that's just filtering. They all do that. Ive used an ST1000 and it was useless compared to the TP22.

Now that's just personal rubbish .. sorry but is just being contrary for the sake of it. Same as saying Ford vs Vauxhall !!

What do you think any Auto does ? They ALL use filtering ... whatever you like to call it ...

You made a statement that your TP22 etc does not 'learn' which actually having sailed on a number of others boats with TP's (22's and up) - I know your statement was wrong anyway. They too learn seastate in first minutes of engaged.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

They are just filtering to get isolated heading information in the same way a gyro compass does. The TP has a sea state mode which can be turned on or off and all it does is allow greater heading deviation to reduce consumption in heavy sea. Just as it has two different gain schedules based on low/high speed which the user can set.
I'm afraid it is you, as usual who is talking cobblers.

 

[johnalison]

Hi ... I originally only picked up on this part because Tranona suggested guy go out and buy an ST2000 .. which is not cheap .. guy is buying a modest budget boat .. and I just wanted to pass on that there are Tiller Pilots out there that can do the job without breaking the bank. But as usual - someone wishes to make an issue of it ...

I agree that he should probably get something suited to his needs, boat and budget.

 

[[193211]]

10kts of thread drift.

 

[Refueler]

10kts of thread drift.

So whats different .. usual after most answers are given ...

 

[dgadee]

10kts of thread drift.

You are giving no-one any leeway.

 

[Refueler]

You are giving no-one any leeway.

Blimey we'll be talking Vectors soon !!

 

[[193211]]

You are giving no-one any leeway.

Fair enough, but I have already accounted for significant deviation.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Fair enough, but I have already accounted for significant deviation.

Someone will be along shortly to explain the error of your ways.