Sabre 27 fin keel or bilge keel?

[Praxinoscope]

Comparison of keel types in Sadlers.

The Mike Lucas keel comparison is interesting and matches roughly what I have experienced over the years of sailing various boats, including a fin keel Sadler 25 and a fin keel Westerly Jouster.
In a perfect world I would still be sailing a single long keel boat, but my mooring is far more suited to a bilge keel as are most of the local harbours in our area. One of the reasons I now choose to sail a Sadler 25 is the deeper bilge keel arrangement which is mentioned in the article, The deeper bilge does seem to help sailing ability, and they also make life easier when anti fouling as there is plenty of ground clearance to scrabble around underneath.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

If the Op wants to race, go for fin.

If the OP wants to potter in creeks and dry out the lovely bays and harbours of Scilly Isles or Brittany, go for bilge.
Bilges can point nearly as high as fin but tend to more leeway, but not all want to beat against the weather (though racers must)

Bilge surprisingly steady against a wave, someone said to me "its the bucket effect" so very little effect on bad weather motion compared with fin.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The MacW 27 is better as they sorted the sail area ratio ... basically same boat but less weather helm etc.

Macwester 26 has terrible weather helm. My old one and many others were fitted with 1 metre bowsprit to overcome this. I would have got a bigger foresail but changed to a bigger faster boat instead. Strongly built and steady but slow

 

[Refueler]

Macwester 26 has terrible weather helm. My old one and many others were fitted with 1 metre bowsprit to overcome this. I would have got a bigger foresail but changed to a bigger faster boat instead. Strongly built and steady but slow

The 27 shortened the boom and foot of the mainsail. It still carries weather helm but at least it helped.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

The 27 shortened the boom and foot of the mainsail. It still carries weather helm but at least it helped.

The problem with the old bilge keelers like the Macwester, they developed a lot of weather helm because they need to be reefed down well before the genoa is furled in. When the wind picks up, the main needs reefing quickly whilst the genoa can be furled in much later.
I enjoy the convenience of the bilge keelers.

 

[Refueler]

The problem with the old bilge keelers like the Macwester, they developed a lot of weather helm because they need to be reefed down well before the genoa is furled in. When the wind picks up, the main needs reefing quickly whilst the genoa can be furled in much later.
I enjoy the convenience of the bilge keelers.

My Sunrider 25 ... if you reef the main before rolling in some Genny - you will need Gorilla's arms to hold the tiller. Seriously.

First you roll in genny because the genny is the main 'mover' of such a boat ... roll in enough to move the centre of effort fwd. THEN look at reefing main.

My boat is not only one but I do accept it is not usual accepted practice.

 

[dgadee]

I like my Seawolf 30 with twin keels. Very sporty looking with a tall mast and half tide mooring. I only plan to go to windward when I am racing it and accept that I'm not going to win. So what? I think.

 

[Giobaggio]

Hello again all,

Thanks so much again for all the feedback, pretty staggered to have had so many responses! Having studied what you have had to say, I’ve come up with a bit of plan that I think makes sense.

I’m going to prioritise:
1) Bilge keelers that are known to be in the top end performance-wise (I’m thinking Hunter Horizon 27, Sadler 26). That way I have the perks of a bilge keel without too much in the way of noticeable side effects. Are they any others that seem to fit the bill here? Just want to be able to keep my eyes open.
2) Lift keelers that dry out flat (Beneteau First 285/29, Kelt 850/29). Again, seems to provide a happy balance between great performance, but the benefits of a shallow draught and drying abilities. Again, are there any others I should be considering?

Other than that, I take on board a common comment in this thread to keep my eyes (and heart) open a bit more broadly. Certainly still considering the Sabre 27 (be it bilge or fin), but will also choose my boat on a case by case basis given the condition etc of anything I come across.

Thanks again, it‘s such a massive help to hear from you all.

 

[Greenheart]

My Sunrider 25 ... if you reef the main before rolling in some Genny - you will need Gorilla's arms to hold the tiller. Seriously.

First you roll in genny because the genny is the main 'mover' of such a boat ... roll in enough to move the centre of effort fwd. THEN look at reefing main.

I seem to have misunderstood you, Refueler, I don't follow the physics of what you're describing. As a general rule, I thought it was accepted that furling or reducing the headsail's area, pushes the centre of effort back behind the mast, inducing weather helm as the boat is trying to luff...

...yet you say reefing the mainsail first, causes weather helm? With the centre of effort brought forward by the dominant genoa, shouldn't it have the opposite effect? Or do you mean the dangerous opposite, lee helm, with all the sail ahead of the mast trying to turn the nose away from the wind and go downwind?

But to the chap asking about which Sabre keel, I'd echo what has been mentioned here - if you're accustomed to the thrilling ways of dinghies, the behaviour of most yachts (except for a few pure-bred racers) will leave you feeling...very relaxed. They don't go fast because they can't - regardless of what the keel is. Yachts have numerous advantages over dinghies, but don't worry about their performance, because your dinghy-days have spoiled you.

So the pleasure of the freedom to drop anchor on sheltered drying sands, or rivers with a firm bottom, knowing the bilge-keeler will stay safely upright till the tide returns, is something the fin keeler's small performance advantage can't beat. Most yachtsmen spend at least half their time under power anyway, so you might as well buy a boat that lets you pick where you park.

 

[Refueler]

'dancrane'

I am posting an example as I do not subscribe to the 'Bilge keelers ..... '. I agree that normally you reduce main to give the genny more authority - but that's when you have no 1 ... no 2 etc. But put a sweeper or larger genny on and it becomes a different game.

My boat - the genny clew comes back quite a way behind the mast and is the most powerful sail on her. The centre of effort of the sail is too far back ... it has been discussed by myself with others who know my boat and we believe that a) the mast is not correct for her - most likely a mast from a larger boat - shortened, with short boom ... give away there is the ratio below / above spreaders, second that possibly mast position is wrong ...
When I compare what I have and the Bristows photo ... there is a difference where Bristows shows a larger than even my genny .. but overall sail area less ... indicating shorter mast etc.


In the photo and line drawing ... that boom is longer than mine .

I have owned my boat for over 20 years and I speak from actual ... my boat is like the Mac 26 ... she will carry weather helm as soon as look at it ...
Trick is and I've played this one many times on people who first time sail her ... ask what they would do to reduce WH ... they all like you say ... Reduce the main ... then once done surprised that they are now having no result ! Roll in a few truns of genny so its CoE moves fwd and bingo ...

Its a combination of a weak mainsail and a powerful genny.

Should you wish to have a great cruise in the Baltic .. amongst the Swedish Islands of Riga Bay ... you are most welcome to come over when restrictions lifted to try out as many variations as you like on my boat ... I am confident after all these years - you'll find that rolling in a few turns of Genny - THEN if needed put a reef in main.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Hello again all,

Thanks so much again for all the feedback, pretty staggered to have had so many responses! Having studied what you have had to say, I’ve come up with a bit of plan that I think makes sense.

I’m going to prioritise:
1) Bilge keelers that are known to be in the top end performance-wise (I’m thinking Hunter Horizon 27, Sadler 26). That way I have the perks of a bilge keel without too much in the way of noticeable side effects. Are they any others that seem to fit the bill here? Just want to be able to keep my eyes open.
2) Lift keelers that dry out flat (Beneteau First 285/29, Kelt 850/29). Again, seems to provide a happy balance between great performance, but the benefits of a shallow draught and drying abilities. Again, are there any others I should be considering?

Other than that, I take on board a common comment in this thread to keep my eyes (and heart) open a bit more broadly. Certainly still considering the Sabre 27 (be it bilge or fin), but will also choose my boat on a case by case basis given the condition etc of anything I come across.

Thanks again, it‘s such a massive help to hear from you all.

Lift keelers be the bulb keel or simple lift keel are vulnerable when drying out. Great for trailing but drying out the bottom of boat rests on any stray debris or rocks, not standing off a foot or so on big iron or iron cored "spacers" otherwise known as keels. I have had damage on two boats to prove it, one of which caused the boat to flood and would have sunk if not foam filled. Some of the southerlies dry out on big plate which helps but is a vulnerable system in its own way if debris gets between plate and hull.

Drying harbours are patrolled by cautious boat owners to remove debris, though BC tides and winter rivers still brought rocks in to damage my two. Drying in picturesque unknown creeks one can sit down on lots of unseen stuff. I love bilge keels

 

[DJE]

I’m going to prioritise:
1) Bilge keelers that are known to be in the top end performance-wise (I’m thinking Hunter Horizon 27, Sadler 26). That way I have the perks of a bilge keel without too much in the way of noticeable side effects. Are they any others that seem to fit the bill here? Just want to be able to keep my eyes open.

I had a bilge keel Sadler 29 for 15 years and I was happy with the sailing performance. The keels were asymmetric with flat outer faces and convex curved inner faces. The effect of this is to produce lift to windward when heeled to combat leeway. They were also inclined so that the leeward keel was approximately vertical at normal angles of heel. Like everything there are good and bad bilge keelers.
My only beef with the Sadler was that the root of the windward keel would break the surface occasionally when hard pressed in a seaway which caused some slamming.

 

[jwilson]

The 27 shortened the boom and foot of the mainsail. It still carries weather helm but at least it helped.

Biggest difference between Macwester 26 and 27 is keel depth. The 27 has deeper keels definitely improving performance, though still not wonderful to windward. These Macwesters are built like tanks, but not the most inspiring boats to sail or often the best finished internally.

 

[Greenheart]

...Should you wish to have a great cruise in the Baltic .. amongst the Swedish Islands of Riga Bay ... you are most welcome to come over when restrictions lifted.

I have owned my boat for over 20 years and I speak from actual ... my boat is like the Mac 26 ... she will carry weather helm as soon as look at it.

A kind offer, I thank you.

Aren't you a bit tired of the Sunrider's eccentricities, after 20 years? It looks like a bit of imperfect design, not beyond correction or improvement with a determined effort, but as yet undealt with. Or is there a fabulous upside to the sail-plan/mast position, which makes it worth enduring the heavy helm?

 

[Refueler]

A kind offer, I thank you.

Aren't you a bit tired of the Sunrider's eccentricities, after 20 years? It looks like a bit of imperfect design, not beyond correction or improvement with a determined effort, but as yet undealt with. Or is there a fabulous upside to the sail-plan/mast position, which makes it worth enduring the heavy helm?

There are times I wonder about another boat .... but she has a 50mm solid GRP hull ... built like a battle tank. I know she can take any weather thrown at her ... 43HP Perkins engine in her .... standing headroom .....

I know how to sail her ... costs me ZERO literally ... no mooring fees ... she requires little in way of replacements each year ... she just keeps on trucking.

I know the boat I would like - but are rare to find one at sensible price ... Moody Eclipse 43 ... but near all are fin keel - with only special order twin. To find one of those ... rocking horse sh** is easier to find !!
A boat I have a lot of respect for and know also like my SR25 ... is built like a tank ... and can take toy anywhere ... Macwester Seaforth ... but there its finding one in good condition ...

Yes I like older boats. I love Nicholsons .... Contessa's ... HR's .... etc ... but most fall into Fin keel territory which means not moored at bottom of my garden which has a max of 2m draft in the middle !
I could go a Jeanneau Lift Keel ..... 'if pushed' !!

 

[Greenheart]

I agree with all your reasoning, Refueler.

I know they're elderly and not very pretty, but I always admired the Westerly Vulcan for its second (interior) helm position and twin keels and sheer spaciousness, for a not-very-costly, extremely versatile 34ft yacht.

I reckon people who own them must be laughing constantly at all the dismissive rude words written about the design.

Westerly Vulcan archive data - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

 

[Giobaggio]

Does anyone have any experience with a Trapper 501 bilge? There are some tidy examples about, but i don’t know an awful lot about them?

 

[doug748]

In post 2 johnalison says it's a dog. Prepare for a response.

There may be some bargains in the coming months, I might be pushing the boat out (heh heh) and looking for a Sadler 29. There have been examples asking 10 to 12k even before the present difficulties.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I looked at the Trapper years ago, initially I liked the look of it, but when I had the chance to sail one I felt it suffered from excessive weather helm. I wasn't keen on the rudder configuration, perhaps it's just a personal thing, but I like to see a skeg as I feel this takes some pressure off the rudder and lightens the helm.

 

[Stemar]

I agree with all your reasoning, Refueler.

I know they're elderly and not very pretty, but I always admired the Westerly Vulcan for its second (interior) helm position and twin keels and sheer spaciousness, for a not-very-costly, extremely versatile 34ft yacht.

I reckon people who own them must be laughing constantly at all the dismissive rude words written about the design.

Westerly Vulcan archive data - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

My budget never came close, but even though they really are fugly, I always fancied one. Comfy, dry sailing. I always thought that getting caught mid-channel in p'ing rain and a rising 6/7 and an exposed helm was an over-rated experience, but with one of those you could still be in your carpet slippers.