Sabre 27 fin keel or bilge keel?

[Stemar]

My Snapdragon 24 is a good example of "bilge keelers don't sail well" and I suspect many of those who say that are thinking of something similar. Actually, off the wind, she goes like a train, albeit a rather heavy, tubby one, but she's safe and surprisingly seaworthy. Get a sprightlier boat and the fin keeler will almost certainly point higher, and generally go to windward better, all things being equal, but with a better helm and a cleaner bottom on the bilge you'll comfortably outsail the fin.

If you want to explore tidal creeks, a bilge keeler will certainly suit you better, unless you budget will run to a Southerly, Ovni, or the like. If you want to carry off the silver, you'll want a fin, but something a bit more performance orientated than a Sabre, which is a lovely boat, but won't be taking line honours very often. OTOH, I'd sooner be in a Sabre if the weather turns nasty than a lightweight flyer, not that the flyer won't cope, but the Sabre would be more comfortable.

As for moorings, a drying mooring for a fin isn't necessarily a problem. My mooring in Portsmouth Harbour is on (in!) thick gloopy mud. A fin would sink into it just as well as a twin, and 40 ft deep fins dry out alongside the club pontoon with no problem.

 

[ballyabroad]

I've previously owned both a Sabre 27 (Bilge/Twin keel) and a Jaguar 25 Swing Keel. The Sabre is built like a tank and a bonus is the encapsulated keels , no worries from drying muddy moorings causing issues with the hull/keel joints. Sailing wise, being out in a blow was fine, very stable and no creaking from any fittings. Performance to windward was usually enhanced by firing up the Beta 25 when you had to be somewhere. I'd expect the fin keeler to sail to wind much better.

A few pros and cons of boats I've owned or sailed that fit your category.

Sabre 27
Pros - Roomy inside, stable, large cockpit, solid fittings. solid laminate, no issues taking ground or accidentally having the occasional sandbank come up and meet you. Good owners association.
Cons - Heavy. Original rudders do have issues with dodgy welding on the tangs. Ensure either the rudder has been split open and re-welded or price it up to get it sorted. Small heads, requires some reversing.

Jag 25 Swing keel.
Pros - Quite quick off the mark, towable behind a 4x4, better windward performance particular in light airs. If brave, you can get them to fly downwind with the spinny and keel both up. Lifting rudder.
Cons - Lightly built, bulkheads creak, the keel and fittings will always worry you. Hence why I sold mine. Does not have the benefit in ability to dry out as it leans over to an uncomfortable angle. Mine even had beaching legs, but in the areas where I could beach cross-currents meant I wasn't keen on deploying the legs.

The 27 is more stable and generally better built to my mind.

Sadler 26 Bilge
Pros - Handles strong winds well with a good motion to windward i.e. cuts through waves rather than slamming. Faster than a Sabre. Good handling characteristics in marinas. Looks more modern.
Cons - Quite cosy inside. Deeper draft than above.

Hunter Horizon Bilge.
Pros - Sails well, more modern layout with plenty of room inside. A heads you can actually sit in. Can be a little tender in a blow.
Cons - Comparative cost.

Moody 27 Fin
Pros - Sails well, and is easy to manoeuvre within marinas. Well thought-out interior design.
Cons - Comparative cost. Not convinced about the original Volvo engines - like many boats of this age it's expensive to maintain. Next door mooring neighbours spend weeks at a time on theirs and quite happy taking over to Holland/Belgium etc.

I'd also include Cobras - the 700 sails quite well and drys out well. On deck feels like a larger boat due to the freeboard and low profile cabin top. But the forepeak is short for the average human and I've been a bit queezy when down below at anchor before, due to the windows being small and high up. More saloon space in the 850, but still a small forepeak. Some not so chipper home finished ones around.

I'd be tempted by either a Giffon or a Konsort, was very nearly very tempted by a Konsort, but came across a Discus (Bilge/Twin) which is what I have at present. Up-sized mainly for the cabin space- got fed up not being able to stand up straight when down below. Still draws about the same as the Sadler 26 as well, so I can still go creek crawling and moor on a cheaper swinging mooring.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Not sure I agree with Ballyabroad on the advantages of encapsulated keels, they are OK if the bottom that they ground on is soft mud, if it's sand which can be abrasive, or generally shingle/stones then the encapsulation is open to serious wear. The boats in our harbour with encapsulated keels all have steel shoes bonded on them to protect the encapsulation, over the years have seen some expensive repairs on encapsulated keels, including two that were due for repair in the Spring, but heavy frosts combined with water in the keel split the keels.

 

[ballyabroad]

Not sure I agree with Ballyabroad on the advantages of encapsulated keels, they are OK if the bottom that they ground on is soft mud, if it's sand which can be abrasive, or generally shingle/stones then the encapsulation is open to serious wear. The boats in our harbour with encapsulated keels all have steel shoes bonded on them to protect the encapsulation, over the years have seen some expensive repairs on encapsulated keels, including two that were due for repair in the Spring, but heavy frosts combined with water in the keel split the keels.

Good point. My Sabre had sacrificial epoxy shoes. Even within the soft gloopy mud you ended up perched on the one rock to be found within meters. Horses for courses I think as we had a couple of boats with bolted on keels that suffered from suction in the mud with a rising tide, after which they began to weep around the keel bolts.

 

[Refueler]

Hi all,

Thanks so much for the advice so far, it’s a real help!

A swing/lifting keel is an interesting suggestion and one that has recently come up in my search. Ostensibly they are the happy middle ground where you get uncompromised performance + shallow draught and sometimes the ability to dry out.

Does anyone have any experience with them? I personally don’t, so any advice would again be appreciated! What are the pros/cons?

Thanks again,

My Father had one of the few lift keel Snapdragon 23's .... all us sons used to hate it when Dad would point at one of us and say ... keel ! It had a central dining table with drop side leaves .. the winding handle was permanent fixed at aft end ... it was a real pain to wind up and down !! BUT the boat sailed well ... in fact we used to enter Round Island Race with her and used to do quite well ...
I reckon many people were surprised at her performance as they expected the typical Snap 23 ...

She dried out fine on mooring at Fareham Club .... in fact there was a time when entering Bembridge that a large Catamaran forced my 'father' over (absolutely no need to but) it led to us being on the beach till next tide ... She stood on the stub keel well and all was good.

I have considered changing from my Bilge Keel 25ft'r to a lift keel Jeanneau of larger size .. 31 - 36ft .....

 

[Refueler]

Last of the macwester 26 perhaps should be on your list? My father had one, I quite liked it but have always been a fin keel person. My approach would be a fin with a good set of legs, modern alloy jobs? Not that I have tried to this. Just a suggestion for a route to look at? Agree with the other advice of look for the best boat not one particular model.

The MacW 27 is better as they sorted the sail area ratio ... basically same boat but less weather helm etc.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Good point. My Sabre had sacrificial epoxy shoes. Even within the soft gloopy mud you ended up perched on the one rock to be found within meters. Horses for courses I think as we had a couple of boats with bolted on keels that suffered from suction in the mud with a rising tide, after which they began to weep around the keel bolts.

I agree, my Invicta had a steel shoe epoxied on, the shoe stayed glued on until it started to wear through (about 8 years) when I had it replaced. This is on a shingle/stoney/mud harbour bottom.
Bolting a shoe on is bad news, if you get any movement the bolts start to enlarge the holes in the GRP and as a result weakens the GRP and May allow water ingress.

 

[Stemar]

Jissel's encapsulated keels were 35 years old when we bought her. The gelcoat on the bottoms was worn away, so I epoxied several layers of heavy cloth over them. Seventeen years later, they're fine, in spite of drying regularly. I did wonder about fitting shoes, but didn't have a lot of time. I certainly wouldn't bolt anything on for the reasons Praxinoscope mentions. A lump of hard wood would be my choice as its thermal expansion is closer to GRP than metals, so more likely to stay on.

An worn encapsulated keel with cracks and rust stains would be a "don't walk away, run" job, but an absence of rust marks means either the ballast is still dry - a lot of boats used steel punchings, or is non-ferrous, so is pretty much immune to water damage, and the repair is straightforward.

 

[Bru]

One key point arose above regarding the twin keel Sabre 27

The encapsulated keels (a major advantage imo, no keel bolts to worry about, no keel to hull seal to fail, no danger of the keel falling off!) have, as previously mentioned, a separately moulded GRP (originally at any rate) shoe permanently bonded to the bottom of each keel

These shoes don't normally need any attention unless the boat has spent a lot of time grinding its keels on an abrasive bottom

However, i have seen boats where the keel shoes have been completely removed and this is a "bad thing" birth because of the loss of protection for the keel proper and because it reduces the effectiveness of the keels when sailing to windward

As far as i know, the moulds for the shoes are long lost and making new ones would be a bit of a challenge, albeit not an insurmountable one

Just something to watch for when looking at potential purchases

 

[Refueler]

Not sure I agree with Ballyabroad on the advantages of encapsulated keels, they are OK if the bottom that they ground on is soft mud, if it's sand which can be abrasive, or generally shingle/stones then the encapsulation is open to serious wear. The boats in our harbour with encapsulated keels all have steel shoes bonded on them to protect the encapsulation, over the years have seen some expensive repairs on encapsulated keels, including two that were due for repair in the Spring, but heavy frosts combined with water in the keel split the keels.

\
My Sunrider 25 has encapsulated keels and she's been drive up and over rocks ... through mud .... in fact I have been asked many times whether she has wheels under her ....

My keels are fine after over 20 years of my abuse !!

Example .... Swedish islands 2011 ... Steve and I were going to the north and there was a shortcut between two islands to get to Arnholm ... I could see other yachts taking the long way round ... but me being me ..... port hand down and lets get there bit quicker .. Soon we were amongst visible rocks ... but I just kept engine at slow speed and Steve up at bow indicating port - stbd as we went ... she lifted over one rock .. then another ... finally into deeper water ..
Steve standing there remarking he'd never seen anything like that before ! Later when in Finnish islands ... we took southern route which means similar fate ... no problem.

I would NEVER have attempted it with a Centaur or similar bolted on keels ...

 

[jwilson]

I think the Sabre is a good choice but as someone else said focusing on a particular make/model restricts your choice and means you might lose out on something that would really suit you or a real bargain so don't discount other boats...

Agreed - don't fixate on one boat model: look at others. Hunters and Sadlers are amongst the better performing fin keelere. Also just because you've seen one model bilge-keeler sailing rather slowly, don't assume they;'re all like that. There are skills to getting a bilge-keeler to sail well, and not all owners have these skills, plus many have knackered sails. Even a Centaur can sail quite well ...... especially if it's not a big-engined version towing a large fixed three bladed prop.

 

[Praxinoscope]

You don't need a mould to create a shoe,if the boat is being lifted out for the winter or some other reason, just get the crane driver to lower it on to a sheet of hardboard or something similar, draw around the keel/keels on to the hard board and you have a template, that à compétant blacksmith can use to construct shoes from.

 

[Bru]

You don't need a mould to create a shoe,if the boat is being lifted out for the winter or some other reason, just get the crane driver to lower it on to a sheet of hardboard or something similar, draw around the keel/keels on to the hard board and you have a template, that à compétant blacksmith can use to construct shoes from.

The Sabre shoes are GRP mouldings, not metal, and are not simple shapes. They have a slight flare to them and add about 3" to the draught and consequently they have a significant effect on the performance of the keels

Missing shoes on a Sabre 27 is not an easy fix

 

[fredrussell]

I don’t know if OP’s budget will stretch but if it’s creek crawling and drying out flat you’re after a Super Seal 26 will do both AND sail the @rse off every other boat mentioned in this thread. Will float in 40cm of water, good accommodation and very well constructed. They command a premium, but for a reason.

 

[PatrickB02]

One more benefit for bilge keels, which might seem obvious but hasn't been mentioned, is that they make it easy to do all your own maintenance, and so save a packet in running costs. Dry out sowewhere suitable, pressure wash, scrub down and antifoul and you're away; no crane out, yard fees or transport costs, and done when you feel like it rather than at their convenience.

Mnay bilge keelers also have a mast tabernacle, so again dropping the mast becomes a DIY job rather than yard and crane. It all adds up...!

 

[Refueler]

One more benefit for bilge keels, which might seem obvious but hasn't been mentioned, is that they make it easy to do all your own maintenance, and so save a packet in running costs. Dry out sowewhere suitable, pressure wash, scrub down and antifoul and you're away; no crane out, yard fees or transport costs, and done when you feel like it rather than at their convenience.

Mnay bilge keelers also have a mast tabernacle, so again dropping the mast becomes a DIY job rather than yard and crane. It all adds up...!

Couple of wood blocks in the yard and she stands on her own ... no cradle ...

 

[johnalison]

One more benefit for bilge keels, which might seem obvious but hasn't been mentioned, is that they make it easy to do all your own maintenance, and so save a packet in running costs. Dry out sowewhere suitable, pressure wash, scrub down and antifoul and you're away; no crane out, yard fees or transport costs, and done when you feel like it rather than at their convenience.

True, but antifouling between twin keels and working at low level is not something I would contemplate at my age. The other side of the coin is easier access when on land, with only a small ladder needed. For all the potential ease of saving costs, there are a good number of twin-keeled craft ashore in my marina.

 

[Laysula]

True, but antifouling between twin keels and working at low level is not something I would contemplate at my age.

Do you not have a wife

 

[ditchcrawler]

I have had a drop keel boat, two twin keel Hunter boats and now a fin keel Moody. The Hunters sailed well but the Moody sails better especially
upwind. According to handicaps for the same Moody the twin keeler is 7/8% difference.
What I find amusing is that people say that if the twin keeler has a good helm and good sails and a clean bottom it will be as good as the fin keeIer . It won’t if the fin keeler has a good helm and good sails and a clean bottom as well

 

[DJE]

Comparison of keel types in Sadlers.