RYA Survey To Shape Future Direction

[Mark-1]

I don't think I was making the point you think I am...

You asked for examples of the categories... I gave you them....

My point was not that one way is necessarily the way forward, or that everyone should take a course.

My point was quite simply that I've met people who have done all the courses and you wouldn't know. And people who have done all the courses and are exceptional sailors. But in this section "done courses and are good" is more prevalent.

I've also met people who have sailed for decades shunning courses and are utter liabilities. And people who have sailed for decades with no formal teaching and are very good sailors. But the latter are much rarer.

Yes, and it's that rarity I'm questioning, and you said incompetent not "not very good".

But, we've each set out our case, and digressed a bit so we can probably forget it and leave others to make their own minds up.

 

[flaming]

Whilst that is a terrible look they could have learned a bowline in 60 seconds and learn how to use a jammer in 0.0003 seconds. (The fact he asked about something as self explanatory as jammer is making he had problems that weren't related to knowledge of sailing!)

Just for clarity on the jammer thing. It wasn't that he couldn't see how it worked to grip the rope, he was asking about releasing under load, did you need to winch the sheet to get it to release, could you jam it when the sheet was moving etc.
All reasonable questions if you've never seen one before, but slightly unsettling things to be asked by someone who held a YM.

 

[flaming]

Yes, and it's that rarity I'm questioning.

Not sure why.

 

[Mark-1]

Just for clarity on the jammer thing. It wasn't that he couldn't see how it worked to grip the rope, he was asking about releasing under load, did you need to winch the sheet to get it to release, could you jam it when the sheet was moving etc.
All reasonable questions if you've never seen one before, but slightly unsettling things to be asked by someone who held a YM.

He'd have worked that out in use in no time. Yes, it's a pretty bad look but it isn't an impediment to going sailing. I don't doubt that someone who learned to sail in three months has a vast number of gaps in their knowledge, but I can't believe that after three sold months of sailing followed by an exam they can't sail a boat around a bit.

 

[Mark-1]

Not sure why.

Because I can't resist jumping in when people are wrong on the internet.

 

[flaming]

Because I can't resist jumping in when people are wrong on the internet.

Me either....

 

[flaming]

He'd have worked that out in use in no time. Yes, it's a pretty bad look but it isn't an impediment to going sailing. I don't doubt that someone who learned to sail in three months has a vast number of gaps in their knowledge, but I can't believe that after three sold months of sailing followed by an exam they can't sail a boat around a bit.

Oh for sure he could sail a boat around a bit. I don't doubt he could park it, and anyone who's just done a YM prep week and exam is a good pick for someone to be on the helm if you've fallen in...

I guess if was going to sum up my point it's that experience can give you things that teaching cannot necessarily give you if they don't come up. But that teaching definitely gives you things that experience alone cannot.

I was a much better sailor after I finished YM than I was before I started, despite the fact that I'd been sailing all my life. Night and day better. But I'm an even better sailor now, 20 odd years later.

 

[Mark-1]

Oh for sure he could sail a boat around a bit. I don't doubt he could park it, and anyone who's just done a YM prep week and exam is a good pick for someone to be on the helm if you've fallen in...

I guess if was going to sum up my point it's that experience can give you things that teaching cannot necessarily give you if they don't come up. But that teaching definitely gives you things that experience alone cannot.

I was a much better sailor after I finished YM than I was before I started, despite the fact that I'd been sailing all my life. Night and day better. But I'm an even better sailor now, 20 odd years later.

But that's not what you said. You said competent people who had been sailing for 30 years were somewhat rare, and you implied zero-to-hero guys sometimes weren't ok sailors (I accept that's not what you actually said).

My view is after 30 years on the water most people are good enough at sailing to enjoy their hobby without regular mishap until the ravages of middle and old age creep up. And I've never met a zero to hero person but I simply can't imagine someone who had spent 3 solid months sailing followed by an exam couldn't cruise a boat about. People learned to fly an aircraft in 40hours in WW2.

...anyway, I'm anxious to back out of this so I'll leave the last word to you.

 

[dgadee]

I did no courses but was taught by someone who had. We sailed all over the south coast out of Poole over to France.

So I did garner knowledge from formal teaching. Very good teacher.

 

[flaming]

But that's not what you said. You said competent people who had been sailing for 30 years were somewhat rare, and you implied zero-to-hero guys sometimes weren't ok sailors (I accept that's not what you actually said).

No, I said I'd met significantly more incompetent long experience "no courses" people than I'd met competent long experience "no courses" people. I normally met the former after they'd done something to bring themselves to my attention....

And yes, I'd completely stand by my assessment that a small number of zero to hero types I met I would not have personally have been at all happy skippering a boat that had my loved ones on. There were just too many gaps in their knowledge. But I would emphasise that this was a small minority of the many zero to hero types that I have sailed with.

 

[ylop]

As for the RYA and knots, on that I agree. ... ... Kid I knew and regularly practiced all the basic knots and al my mates did too. I guess Minecraft trumps knots, Manic Miner doesn't.

Being more if the Manic Miner age group, I'm not sure that's where the issue lies! The quality of knot teaching is highly variable. When I could have been playing manic miner I had a whole range of knots "scared" into me - not because I thought they would be useful but because someone barked orders at me and wanted them tied in a particular way but never really explained when/how to use them or the pro's con's of the options. I suspect because they didn't know but had been similarly drilled in the "right way" to tie knots, rather than the "right knot" to tie! Only much later when a friend of mine was doing his climbing instructor training and I was a dummy pupil for him, did I suddenly have a revelation.

All reasonable questions if you've never seen one before, but slightly unsettling things to be asked by someone who held a YM.

That can be the reality of any compressed training - it will inevitably be performed on a very small range of craft, and so familiarity with "other" approaches can be much lower. Of course the same can be true of someone who has gained all their experience on a family boat.

People learned to fly an aircraft in 40hours in WW2.

Not all of them came back alive! Presumably, not everyone "passed" the course either and some were destined to other tasks? I know a couple of zero-to-hero people who are very good but they both have stories of people who made it remarkably far through the training before someone took them aside and said "this maybe isn't the career for you". From hiring graduates, I see people who can make it through training and exams but 6 weeks later seem to have forgotten everything they learned, or like the knot tying above know the theory but not when to use it.