RYA Powerboat Courses

TheBoatman

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As a PB instructor and licensed boatman I find myself at odds with the new RYA PB syllabus. It seems to me that it is totally rib orientated! As an instructor I am now being told that if I “tell” a candidate about displacement boat handling characteristics without them actually handling a boat “it is fine”. It tells me that I should explain the use of the kill cord on such boats when I have rarely seen such a thing? I have to teach (tell) them about prop walk, carrying way and handling abilities but they don’t have to actually experience or use such a boat. It is my understanding that if I “teach” them in a rib and “tell” them about displacement boats I can pass them.
Now call me old fashioned but I truly believe that I could talk to candidates until I’m blue in the face about displacement boat handling and they would still get a huge shock when actually asked to do it. In my opinion a rib is one of the easiest boats to handle, it goes fast, bleeds speed off at the close of a throttle, backs up wherever you point the engine, has nice soft sides that cause no damage if you hit another boat normally weighs less than a ton and is very manoeuvrable. So how come I can give a ticket to a candidate that could be asked to drive a 9 mtr displacement boat weighing god knows what and expect him/her to understand what to expect.
I have spoken to a number of fellow instructors about this and they all have the same reservations as me, we all are rather jittery about this new syllabus, under the RYA we are being asked to pass people off as competent PB drivers when we know that they have had no real practical experience of all types of PB.
I’m sorry but I only see it a recipe for disaster and have to question the RYA’s reasoning for this change in PB training! Surely the ticket should reflect the candidate’s experience of various types of hull design/engine configuration and the types of water that they did their training on, not a “lets talk about it in the classroom” and you’ll be OK, just go ahead and plough on scenario.

Peter.
Somewhat disillusioned RYA PB instructor.


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LifeAtSea

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Ah! If only there were an RYA Powerboat course near me. I'm going to have to take the first level practical thingy in bloody Japanese and then do the written test in English in April. Until then, I will be sailing illegally in Japanese waters because they require you to have the first level powerboat license to sail over here.
Roll on April.

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dralex

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I have an RYA powerboat qualification from years ago and the certificate specifies that it was using planing craft- there was no mention of displacement craft. When did it change and why? You're quite right- a RIB is a doddle to handle compared to a displacement boat, though the only displacement boat I have ever used is a yacht, which has other issues when it comes to handling.

I suppose if enough instructors feel the same way, the RYA will have to listen.


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Solitaire

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I have twice tried to post to this and each time my computer carshed so I'm going to keep it short. Firstly though why did you post on the yachtie forum??

Right, I have to disagree with you. You can endorse each certificate that the course was done on a boat type(s) so the mechanism is in place. Next, I have not instructed anybody this year who either has or intends to get a dispalcemnt boat - all the schools I instruct with are dictated to by their market. If there was a high demand for Level 2 on displacement boats then needs would be met accordingly. I only know of one training establishemnt that offers both planing, and displacment boats. It is a reconnised RYA centre via the military. A Level 2 course is over 4 days, it's is limited to milatary personel, their families and public sector employess and they don't pay the instructors!

As to being rib orinentated I don't see that. I teach on hard boats as well as ribs, stern drives, and outboards. The priciples of boat handling on all these boat types is the same. Of course shaft drive is different, so is jet drive and I've not had the demand to teach on those either!

As to the change in the sylabus - I went back throuh various log books in my possesion and while the courses have been updated to include more electronic navigational skills, the course is pretty much the same as it was going back as far as 1990!

So, unless the schools you instruct with are preapred to invest/ hire in different boats and you extend the course to at least 4 days you'll just have to endorse the certificate if that is your want. I'd be happy to extend the course over more days and instruct on more boats, but lets come back to the realities of the market and the needs of most powerboaters. Also remeber that teh Level 2 course is one of ongoing assement, there is no exam at the end and it is there to teach basic boat handling skills. next thing is you'll be wanting learner drivers to be given the opportunitity to drive fast sports cars and 3 wheelers during thier run up to the test.

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Cornishman

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I may be barking up the wrong tree altogether, but surely for displacement hulls the student should be attending the RYA/MCA Motor Cruising courses (see RYA publication G18/03 for syllabi at Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper level). I have always had trouble differentiating between motor boats and power boats when advising students. I can understand why power boat courses are so RIB orientated, so if they want displacement hull training I suggest the motor cruising courses helmsman's practical course. After that they can progress if they want to Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster.

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Goodge

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I must admit I think the RYA courses are confusing.

I did PB level 2 last year and it seems the path is Level 2, Safety Boat, Advanced Powerboat etc but does not culminate in Yachtmaster (Power) which appears to be gained by a separate route. I find this rather confusing.

For info that was taken on a rib and I can see how people might think it not very relevant to displacement craft at all. However the boat handling techniques can be applied to various craft and certainly helped me with handling a yacht.

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DaveW

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I have to agree. I am a PB instructor as well and would find it hard to give a ticket to a someone who has not experienced a displacement boat. At my centre on Windermere we usually give the students at least 1 -2 hours experience in a displacement craft over the course of a 2 day level 2 course. With that minimal experience we can just about feel that we can pass them off.

Dave

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SouthPark

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I did RYA PB2 on a rib on the Thames (counts as tidal waters!) when I owned a 25ft fletcher with 2 * 160hp sterndrives. My certificate doesn't specify what types of powerboats I am certified on (as far as I can remember). I found the tuition extremely useful to handling the fletcher, even though the dynamics of a heavy twin-engined, rigid boat are very different to those of a rib.

No course is going to turn you into a competent helm for even a single type of boat. It takes experience to do that - the course just gives you some initial skills.

I don't do power boats anymore - too smelly and boring ;-) Tell me, can I get away with using my powerboat ICC if I want to sail my Moody in the bits of Europe that care about ICCs? (I know that the official answer is "no" - but would anyone actually notice?

SouthPark

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Solitaire

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I really don't understand where the confusion comes into it. The Power Boat Log Book G20/04 is quite clear.

" The course may be conducted in a variety of boat types, both planning and displacement, and the certificate issued will be endorsed to show the type(s) of boat in which the training took place"

So you would endorse the certificate in the same way as the Level 2 certificate you award is non-tidal!

Level 2 courses are a process of continuall assement, there is no exam at the conclusion. This is of course different to Day Skipper and above.



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TheBoatman

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David
May I suggest that you go back and have a good read of G20/04 and make the distinction between
Knowledge of:
understand.
Can:

Apart from the Arvor range of boats I know of no other boat that has a kill cord fitted inside a wheelhouse.
Why would you want to talk about flooding when going astern excepting if your driving a rib.

I still maintain the same comment "it is totally rib orintated"

I also offer the following comment from G20/04

"The lower age limit for RYA Powerboat courses is 8 years but the RYA would not reccommend under 16s being left in charge of a powerboat without adult supervision"

What the hell does that mean?

On our displacement craft an 8 year old couldn't even see over the bows yet alone work the helm. In my opinion an 8 year old cannot make the decisions neccessary to helm a boat of any description and if the RYA are saying that no one under 16 should be in charge of a powerboat then why reduce the age to 8?

In my time as an instructor I have taught youngsters down to the age of 12 but I would have to say that they were very big for their age and have had loads of experience with their fathers who fished from a beached launched boat. Even at 16 you can get a diverse type of cadet? I have had 16 year old girls that could knock the socks off of 17 year old boys when it comes to boat handling MOB recovery.

IMHO the tickets should reflect the candidates practical experience i.e. tidal/non tidal, planning/displacement/semi-displacement. There should be no room for a ticket to be issued on "hearsay" alone.

Respectfully
Peter.


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Andrew_Fanner

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PB 2 gets you ICC and can be found for a couple of hundred pounds, takes a weekend.
DS Prac gets you ICC and costs two or three times as much, plus takes a week or three weekends.

PB2 makes itself very desirable thereby, regardless of the actual boat you plan to skipper.

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Its_Only_Money

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"IMHO the tickets should reflect the candidates practical experience i.e. tidal/non tidal, planning/displacement/semi-displacement."

Doesn't the quote Solitaire posted require you to endorse the certificate exactly as you suggest??? If so what is the issue re the ticket itself as it should then limit the scope of the certificate to those type(s) the course was carried out on?

I would have thought it quite sensible for any particular course to concentrate on the type of boat the attendee finds most relevant, by covering all possible types you must by definition cut down the time spent on the time most relevant to those attending. Not sure what the point of that is.

Surely the RYA expect you to demonstrate that which you can and provide guidance on where the different boat types to that which are available differ in their approach and/or handling characteristics. If someone had a heavy displacement boat presumably you would teach in a similar vessel if available but make the candidate aware of rib/yacht characteristics - which may give a useful appreciation when manoeuvering in close quarters with these other types - even if it doesn't give enough hands-on to enable you to handle such vessels straight off????

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Solitaire

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The rules regarding ICC change from next year. If you gain the level 2 certificate the ICC will enable the holder to helm omly up to 10 metres as opposed to the current 24 metres. So change is taking place.

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jamesjermain

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Yes, the sort of harbour master who demands to see an ICC will scrutinise every line and will very likely spot the difference.

You are more likely to get away with it because no one will ask to see the certificate

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