RYA and the new Marine Bill

[Tranona]

Oh yes, so I did. in a different context.

I don't think the RYA should do things for free, particularly in the case of issuing international qualifications, where they should charge a fair price for the work involved. This should not involve ripping off non-members as a punishment for not joining. Forty quid is four hours of clerical time, including on-costs ... how long does it take them to process a renewal?

Please explain what world you live in where £40 buys you 4 hours of fully costed labour?

Suggest you compare the renewal fee with that in other countries (50% higher in the US for example) or renewing your driving licence - or your passport and you will get the drift.

As Tim has pointed out but nobody seems to listen, the ICC is a UN determined certificate that governments are required to issue. The 5 year renewal is a UN requirement because it is in line with commercial seaman certificates. The RYA issues it to holders of the relevant certificates or those (like me) who pass the test. It is "free" to members because part of their subscription goes towards the adminstration of the scheme. Not unreasonable that those who have not contributed should pay - the princely sum of just under £8 a year.

So pay up as it is a valuable piece of paper if you need it and stop bitching. There are much more important things in this boating world.

For example the impending changes in a variety of fields of legislation that affect us - and the RYA is the only body that represents us - imperfect though it may be.

 

[Brian blue bear]

Private messeges?

Timbartlet has for some reason sent his reply via private mail I have copied and pasted his reply below really? Why would I be offended? If I found anything on this forum Offensive I would stop visiting, and I certainly don't take It personal...
Timbartlets,input
You wrote:
Quote:
Even If the Company Doesn't Make a profit are there fat Cats at the top which cream away the profits with Extortionate Salaries,bonuses, expenses and Pensions, I will of course be incredably happy and my faith will somewhat restored in my fellow Countryman if the top are also volunteers, I have had the incredably plesant experience of meeting the dedicated instructors,

Then I replied, and you wrote:
Quote:
What are you on about? What was the advertised salaries? fat cats of Councils? what have they to do with it? Government they will take thier cut, to suggest otherwise is comical... whats that all about Shares? Tiddlywinks? I say...Sorry speechless, where do royals come into it? I dont care If they have Royal endorsment or not, what free services? are you in the same world?Really, no I mean REALLY don't pay subscriptions on my behalf or subsidise me, If you do you really are daft, indeed tell them to leave me out of all thier freebees! nothing is free in this life!!!! I'll pay for what I require including qualifications invented by the RYA to make money. Really I don't mind but don't P**s on me and tell me It's raining.

My earlier post was directed to the forum in general. Not directly to you in particular. As you seem to be offended by the fact that I referred to other people's posts in the same reply, I thought I should write you a personal reply in a private message.

(1) You raised the question of salaries and "fat cats" in your earlier post, so I find it odd that you should now be asking "what have they to do with it?"
As I explained (quite clearly, I thought), the people that you regard as the "fat cats" are, volunteers, and are not paid for their service on RYA Council or committees.
RYA staff are paid, but although I cannot remember the precise details of the salaries I have seen advertised, none of them have struck me as "extortionate".
Incidentally, most RYA Instructors are also paid, but by the companies that employ them, rather than by the RYA itself.

(2) I cannot see anywhere where I have suggested that the Government would not "take their cut"

(3) Other people have suggested that the RYA is a private company, but have apparently overlooked the key words "limited by guarantee". That is why I thought it useful to explain that a company limited by guarantee has no shares.

(4) Several people appear to have been offended by the term "governing body". I attempted to explain what it means, by comparison with the Football Association and the English Tiddleywinks Association

(5) Royal comes into it because it is the first word of the name of the organisation that you have been slagging off. If you had taken the trouble to read what I wrote, you would see that I entirely agree with you about its significance.

(6) Some people seem to be objecting because non-members are asked to pay for services that members get for free. Curiously, some of the same people seem to be arguing that members don't get really get those services free because they have to pay subscriptions in order to be members, in the next post they are complaining that it is unfair that they should have to pay for a service when by paying £3 more they could become a member and get it for free, but that being offered that option is somehow a rip-off. I confess that I cannot follow all these apparently contradictory arguments, so I cannot explain them any better.

There are some services that you, and I, and everyone else gets for free because they are indivisible. It is impossible for the RYA to monitor government activity for its members, for instance, without monitoring it for non-members as well.
It could not object to the UKBA treatment of yachts, for instance, and say "we object on behalf of yachts owned by our members, but you can do what you like to anyone else." As you say, nothing in this life is free, so those who do not contribute to the cost of the RYA's activities are inevitably being subsidised by those who do -- whether you, I , or anyone else likes it or not.

(7) If you don't need qualifications or training, don't do them. The RYA has always stood up for your right to go sailing without compulsory licensing and registration -- event though you seem not to appreciate the value of its efforts!

(8) I'm afraid that when you say things like "... don't P**s on me and tell me It's raining.", my instinctive reaction is that I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire...

 

[Algol]

/\/\/\/\ Nutter

 

[Ubergeekian]

Please explain what world you live in where £40 buys you 4 hours of fully costed labour?

Not for building rockets, I agree, but we are talking here about low grade clerical work. Enter licence number, click to confirm, click "renew", click "print", put in envelope, place in mail box

As Tim has pointed out but nobody seems to listen, the ICC is a UN determined certificate that governments are required to issue. The 5 year renewal is a UN requirement because it is in line with commercial seaman certificates. The RYA issues it to holders of the relevant certificates or those (like me) who pass the test. It is "free" to members because part of their subscription goes towards the adminstration of the scheme. Not unreasonable that those who have not contributed should pay - the princely sum of just under £8 a year.

The per-year cost is a red herring, of course. Unless you think there would be more or less work involved if validity was three or ten years.

For example the impending changes in a variety of fields of legislation that affect us - and the RYA is the only body that represents us - imperfect though it may be.

Alas I don't trust the RYA to represent me.

 

[flaming]

Alas I don't trust the RYA to represent me.

Then I assume you are directly lobying the government about any marine subject you object to?

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Do you *demand* the right to leave your dinghy in a club dinghy park, without being a member?
So why do non members believe that they have a right to demand free services from the RYA?
And why should they expect the members who *do* pay a subscription to subsidise the services that they demand for free?[/QU]

This is all getting a bit silly.Who is demanding anything of the RYA or expecting it's members to subsidize anything?They have cut a nice little nitch out for themselves promoting qualifications & yachting.
Personally I can do without either but I do object to being patronized all the time

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Then I assume you are directly lobying the government about any marine subject you object to?

you bet your life that is what our ancestors fought & died for.To give us a Democracy.
Write to your local MP that is what they are there for & why we pay them so much money.

 

[Tranona]

Not for building rockets, I agree, but we are talking here about low grade clerical work. Enter licence number, click to confirm, click "renew", click "print", put in envelope, place in mail box



The per-year cost is a red herring, of course. Unless you think there would be more or less work involved if validity was three or ten years.



Alas I don't trust the RYA to represent me.

So, who is going to pay for the cost of representing UK boaters interests at the UN and through the European Boating Association which the government does not want to do directly but leaves that to the people most capable of dealing with it - in this case the RYA.

Or would you rather this was provided by such organisations as Serco or Capita? who are really in it for "profit". Just imagine what the "cost" might be then!

Just to remind you of the status of the RYA. It is a members organisation not required to make a profit. It derives its income from subscriptions which are kept low because it also operates a related commercial business of selling merchandise - profits from which contribute towards the cost of a wide range of activities available to members.

If you don't like the way it is run or organised, join, stand for election and try to change internally. If you don't want to do that, don't join - but then stop whinging as you have no right to whinge about an organisation that you don't belong to.

Oh, and by the way if you want something they provide then you have to pay. You can't have it both ways.

 

[glashen]

Not for building rockets, I agree, but we are talking here about low grade clerical work. Enter licence number, click to confirm, click "renew", click "print", put in envelope, place in mail box.

I would like to know of any sizeable organization running a office, computer, and records, that would charge out labour at £10 per hour.

Alas I don't trust the RYA to represent me.

That's the nub of it, but really you can't object to the way RYA defends your rights if you're not a member, by all means lobby, form your own organisation etc., but the RYA should continue to act for the rights of the leisure water users and if you won't join either individually or through a club for whatever reason (and there have been some gems mentioned above) you can't really expect to influence how they represent their members interests. I wouldn't expect you to be grateful but I do sympathise with those you feel that the RYA being criticized by non members for not doing a good enough job is a bit rich.

 

[Ubergeekian]

If you don't like the way it is run or organised, join, stand for election and try to change internally. If you don't want to do that, don't join - but then stop whinging as you have no right to whinge about an organisation that you don't belong to.

I have every right to complain if they act against my interests, though. After all, we can complain about the BNP (or Labour, of the Tories, or the SNP) without joining.

Oh, and by the way if you want something they provide then you have to pay. You can't have it both ways.

Sure. No problems. I'm always happy to pay a fair price for a service.

 

[flaming]

I have every right to complain if they act against my interests, though.

I can see why some people might think the RYA could do more to represent their particular branch of boating...

But acting AGAINST your interests?

I'm genuinely intrigued as to how you think the RYA are acting against your interests.

 

[timbartlett]

I have every right to complain if they act against my interests, though. After all, we can complain about the BNP (or Labour, of the Tories, or the SNP) without joining.

While this is true, up to a point, I don't see that anyone has yet managed to identify any way in which the RYA has acted against their interests. (Though there must be plenty of civil servants who would be quite pleased if the RYA was not around to keep an eye on them) If only the RAC were as effective in keeping up pressure on the DVLA!

Sure. No problems. I'm always happy to pay a fair price for a service.

But you clearly are not, because that seems to be your fundamental point against the RYA: you object to being asked to being asked to pay for an ICC -- something which is not compulsory, (you could always go and take a written exam on the CEVNI rules in dutch, for instance : ) and which you could get from other places if you chose to.

 

[timbartlett]

Write to your local MP that is what they are there for & why we pay them so much money.

That's the best joke I've heard for ages!

Have you heard the one about the flying pigs?

 

[glashen]

Write to your local MP that is what they are there for & why we pay them so much money.

I bow to your optimism.

Actually, at the start of this year we did locally have an issue with a council's desire to close a water activities centre. I and many others wrote to our MP, who replied and questioned the council. This and a No.10 petition, pressure from the local press and the RYA, won the centre a reprieve and it was taken over by a local college vowing to continue their good work.

What made the council reconsider, who knows, probably a bit of all of the above, if you are unhappy with the powers that be, everything is worth a go! Of course recent history is littered with examples of our government taking no notice of what the public think, it still does no harm to let them know.

The RYA should defend our rights from a position of knowledge with good sense, not things always in evidence in government policy. If the RYA don't represent us our individual voices will count for a lot less.

 

[Ubergeekian]

But you clearly are not, because that seems to be your fundamental point against the RYA: you object to being asked to being asked to pay for an ICC -- something which is not compulsory,

I do wish you wouldn't represent me in this way. How many times do I have to say (a) tat I never object to paying a fair price for a service but that (b) I don't think that fort pounds for a simply administrative renewal is a fair price.

The RYA is fully entitled to campaign as it wishes and thereby represent the interests of its members and sponsors. It is not justified, in my opinon, in exploiting a near-monopoly to raise money for these purposes from people who may be assumed, from their decision not to join, not to agree.

(you could always go and take a written exam on the CEVNI rules in dutch, for instance : ) and which you could get from other places if you chose to.

The Dutch are extremely strict about this, and will not issue ICCs to non residents. Which has always seemed daft to me, since a competence based qualification should be able to be issued and accepted anywhere. Still, if I ever feel the need for an ICC I'll know where not to go.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The RYA representing all sailors and motorboaters ("leisure water users" if you want a catch-all) has one main difference to a Trade Union closed shop: the union is democratic and accountable.

The major difference is that membership of the closed shop is compulsory. But I really dont see what is the connection between any sporting organisation and a trade union. What are you trying to say here?

To be honest, I go sailing to get away form the sort of people who like to organise committees and tell me what I should be doing, so it's difficult to think of what they could do to attract the likes of me, without driving out all the blazered commodores and the like.

As I see it, they are there for Yacht Clubs and their members, and to promote sailing as a sport, i.e. a competitive activity. I don't fall into any of those categories, so their attempts to "represent" me, however well meaning, are nothing more than a means to extend their political influence.

I don't see how your interests can be represented to government without people who are prepared to work on committees, whether or not wearing a blazer. Certainly the govt actively seeks representative organisations to talk to whether they be sporting bodies or trade bodies. They wont talk to individuals for practical reasons.

Or are you simply happy for the govt to legislate without anyone trying to represent your interests or even to explain to govt what matters to sailors like you?

You also have an odd idea of yacht clubs. I'm a member of three ( and I've been known to wear a blazer albeit not to a club Shame on me!) and in those three clubs of total 1400 members and 500 boats, we have a combined regular racing fleet of maybe 25 boats. The rest cruise or just potter. And a few racing clubs apart, this is the general pattern - clubs are a means of mutual support. They are co-operatives if you wish

 

[Tranona]

I do wish you wouldn't represent me in this way. How many times do I have to say (a) tat I never object to paying a fair price for a service but that (b) I don't think that fort pounds for a simply administrative renewal is a fair price.
The Dutch are extremely strict about this, and will not issue ICCs to non residents. Which has always seemed daft to me, since a competence based qualification should be able to be issued and accepted anywhere. Still, if I ever feel the need for an ICC I'll know where not to go.

Quite right that the Dutch are strict. ICCs are an official government backed document to comply with a UN resolution so can only be issued to residents. This is not a competition to see who can issue the cheapest ICC. It is an internationally accepted confirmation by your government that you are competent to operate a boat when in another country's territory.

If you think it is too expensive don't bother and suffer the consequences.

I am always amazed that people can pick on such a trivial issue of cost in relation to value and try to make so much of it as if there is a conspiracy against them!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I'm genuinely intrigued as to how you think the RYA are acting against your interests.

I think the RYA does frequently act against the interests of yachtsmen. Some examples:

VAT on boats – they've encouraged the whole VAT urban myth. Presumably because the more threatening legislation appears to be waiting in the wings the more people join/rejoin the RYA. Loads of boat owners have lost money over this myth.

Misleading information on ICCs. The RYA offer (or have offered) misleading information. For instance I recently started to take the odd bare boat trip to Greece. At the time according to the RYA I required an ICC. It was a lie. In fact there is no such requirement. I don't have an ICC so if I hadn't double checked I would have ruled Greece out and missed a few good holidays. Do they give a list of nations that require visitors to have ICCs? No, they quietly imply that you need ICCs to go pretty much anywhere because it makes them and the sailing schools cash.

SSR Abroad – They've invented the whole “French Fixed Penalty if you're caught without an original SSR”. The RYA just propagate this elaborate myth to make people feel the need to join a lobbying group to protect their ability to sail from place to place.

The RYA personal logbook. It's a scam aimed purely at fleecing newbies. No space for any detail about each trip, space for very few trips and pages of wasted space filled with adverts for RYA products. I know the RYA is a business but is scamming newcomers really acceptable? Yes, it's optional but how many newbies are told that?

It's less tangable but I also feel the RYA are directly responsibly for creating a culture of certificates in sailing which has attracted a load of tossers interested only in scoring points off other sailors into a sport where everyone used to help each other out and get on. How many people are put off starting sailing becuase they look at the huge array of pricey courses, presented as requirements on a path into sailing. I know someone who spent 5 grand on training when he started sailing. As a lad I got into sailing for the price of a dinghy. The RYA have changed that.

I'm sure the RYA have done plenty of good – the request was specifically for examples where the RYA have worked against the interests of yachtsmen so there's a few to start with. I'd be amazed if there weren't others.

 

[timbartlett]

VAT on boats – they've encouraged the whole VAT urban myth.

So VAT is an urban myth, eh. Pleased you told me. So now I can refuse to pay this "urban myth". Do HMRC know?

Misleading information on ICCs. Do they give a list of nations that require visitors to have ICCs?

Yes, it's in the member services section of their website. Available free of charge to members (but non-members have to pay £43 for it )

SSR Abroad – They've invented the whole “French Fixed Penalty if you're caught without an original SSR”.

Powerful people, the RYA. Not only can they arbitrarily impose VAT in the UK, but now it seems they have direct control over French legislation, too!

The RYA personal logbook. It's a scam aimed purely at fleecing newbies.

No it isn't: it's a book. Just a book. You're quite right, it does not carry a label saying "Buying this book is not compulsory". But then again, I don't think I've ever seen a book that does.

creating a culture of certificates As a lad I got into sailing for the price of a dinghy. The RYA have changed that.

How? You can still buy a dinghy and go and teach yourself if you want to. What the RYA has done is given us the rather cheaper and quicker option of taking those first few steps without buying a dinghy, and without having to learn by too many painful and/or expensive mistakes.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

So VAT is an urban myth, eh. Pleased you told me. So now I can refuse to pay this "urban myth". Do HMRC know?

sigh.

Maybe someone else will explain it to you. I can't be bothered.

Yes, it's in the member services section of their website. Available free of charge to members (but non-members have to pay £43 for it )

Does that detract from my answer?

Powerful people, the RYA. Not only can they arbitrarily impose VAT in the UK, but now it seems they have direct control over French legislation, too!

sigh

Again, you misunderstand. Again, I can't really be bothered to put you right.

No it isn't: it's a book. Just a book. You're quite right, it does not carry a label saying "Buying this book is not compulsory". But then again, I don't think I've ever seen a book that does.

But you do admit it's useless as a personal log book, packed full of adverts and only sells because newbies are under the mistaken impression that better alternatives are no good?

What the RYA has done is given us the rather cheaper and quicker option of taking those first few steps without buying a dinghy, and without having to learn by too many painful and/or expensive mistakes.

So you'd seriously advice a 7 year old lad starting out that instead of buying a Mirror Dinghy for £80 it would be cheaper and quicker to go down the RYA route? If I'd done that I'd never have had the cash to even start. I couldn't even have done YM 'till I was 18! It's a joke. I think your comment supports my point. The RYA say their courses are cheaper than learning the way I did. Then newbies see the massive expense of the ''cheap" option of courses that and decide they can't even afford the cheap option and go and take up something else instead.