RYA and the new Marine Bill

[capnsensible]

Dear Toad, only a minor point in the grand scheme of this fascinating argument, but.....

I have in front of me now a copy of the RYA book G15 Sail Cruising and Yachtmaster Scheme.
Otherwise known as an RYA logbook, but more correctly as Syllabus and Logbook.

It has 90 pages. Mostly describing the Scheme as its name implies.

On page 85 there is an advert showing other RYA publications.

Er.... thats it. Somewhat less than packed, I would say. Perhaps you miss the point of this publication??

Hope this helps to ease one of your concerns.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I have in front of me now a copy of the RYA book G15 Sail Cruising and Yachtmaster Scheme.
Otherwise known as an RYA logbook, but more correctly as Syllabus and Logbook.
It has 90 pages. Mostly describing the Scheme as its name implies.
On page 85 there is an advert showing other RYA publications.
Er.... thats it. Somewhat less than packed, I would say. Perhaps you miss the point of this publication??

I had a flick through a mate's girlfriends logbook this weekend (hence it's fresh in my mind).

7 sides for log entries out of the whole book. (It was 90 pages?! So 83 pages of s**t!)
5 entries per side. So 35 cruises worth! Which is shocking in itself.

What's worse is that each entry is a tiny little box! So you can't even properly note any trip at all.

So you can write up in a very minimalist way 35 weekend trips. If you're away for a week it's useless.

Can you imagine giving HW Tilman an RYA logbook? Wonder what he'd say.

It's a scam to get cash out of newbies.

Hope this helps to ease one of your concerns.

I'm not concerned at all. Someone asked what the RYA had done the detriment of sailors I gave some examples.

 

[timbartlett]

What's worse is that each entry is a tiny little box! So you can't even properly note any trip at all....It's a scam to get cash out of newbies.

Sorry, I thought when you wrote "Personal Logbook" you were talking about the "Personal Logbook".

Silly me. Now, I see that you are talking about the Syllabus and logbook.

A lot of people might think that putting "Syllabus and" as the first two words of the title is a bit of a give-away, really, but you're right, some people will probably be duped into thinking that they are buying a book about chopped up trees. What dastardly tricks these RYA people come up with to extract cash from an unsuspecting public.

Fancy fooling us into believing that there's a tax called VAT that applies to boats, then persuading the French Government to pass a law requiring foreign vessels to carry documentary proof of identity and ownership, and now this! Will they stop at nothing?

 

[capnsensible]

Drifting a bit further then...

You could suggest to your friends' girlfriend that she keeps a copy of the book G15 solely as a reference soure regarding the syllabus requirements of the RYA courses to ensure she gets taught to the correct standards. She could then keep a simple log to her personal taste to record her voyages.

I use this method personally otherwise I would need a farkin great big book to detail the 97 thousand miles I've completed under sail.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Silly me. Now, I see that you are talking about the Syllabus and logbook.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe she'd just bought the wrong one (although it did seem to look like RYA log books I've seen before). What does the RYA "logbook" as opposed to the syllabus and logbook look like?

Fancy fooling us into believing that there's a tax called VAT that applies to boats, then persuading the French Government to pass a law requiring foreign vessels to carry documentary proof of identity and ownership, and now this! Will they stop at nothing?

You can play the clown to try to duck the issue but, I'm still right. The RYA could have stamped on the myth and they instead they suported it. That harmed yachtsmen. If you don't like that take it up with the guy up there who asked the question, not me.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

VAT on boats – they've encouraged the whole VAT urban myth. Presumably because the more threatening legislation appears to be waiting in the wings the more people join/rejoin the RYA. Loads of boat owners have lost money over this myth.

What are you on about? What urban myth?

Misleading information on ICCs. The RYA offer (or have offered) misleading information. For instance I recently started to take the odd bare boat trip to Greece. At the time according to the RYA I required an ICC. It was a lie. In fact there is no such requirement. I don't have an ICC so if I hadn't double checked I would have ruled Greece out and missed a few good holidays. Do they give a list of nations that require visitors to have ICCs? No, they quietly imply that you need ICCs to go pretty much anywhere because it makes them and the sailing schools cash.

I cut and past the following from the RYA website

The requirement for a certificate of competence varies from country to country. Sometimes they are required for coastal waters, sometimes for inland waters, sometimes for neither and sometimes for both. As the skipper of a vessel, you must ensure that you are aware of any requirement for qualifications before venturing into another country's jurisdiction.

Seems you took their advice and checked out the situation for yourself. Well done.

SSR Abroad – They've invented the whole “French Fixed Penalty if you're caught without an original SSR”. The RYA just propagate this elaborate myth to make people feel the need to join a lobbying group to protect their ability to sail from place to place.

What are you on about here?

The RYA personal logbook. It's a scam aimed purely at fleecing newbies. No space for any detail about each trip, space for very few trips and pages of wasted space filled with adverts for RYA products. I know the RYA is a business but is scamming newcomers really acceptable? Yes, it's optional but how many newbies are told that?

I cut and paste the following directly form the description of this book on the RYA website

Explains the syllabus for the RYA Competent Crew, Day & Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster sailing courses. 
Space for personal log and course completion certificates.

Can you tell me which part of their sales description is wrong? As already pointed out there is only one advert page, the rest is all content.

It's less tangable but I also feel the RYA are directly responsibly for creating a culture of certificates….

The culture of collecting certificates was not created by the RYA, its nation wide in all walks of life. The RYA have successfully lobbied for these certificates not to become compulsory in sailing, so that you have the freedom of choice. If you don’t want a training course then don’t buy one.

The logbook as you refer to it, is I believe this book


http://www.rya.org.uk/shop/pages/pr...(RYA+Main)&type=BK(RYADefaultCatalog)&course=

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You could suggest to your friends' girlfriend that she keeps a copy of the book G15 solely as a reference soure regarding the syllabus requirements of the RYA courses to ensure she gets taught to the correct standards. She could then keep a simple log to her personal taste to record her voyages.

Well she'd fallen for the scam and bought the book now so she might as well keep it. But she realizes it's useless and in one summer she's nearly out of space. (They did a week in Croatia and she had to staple two sides of A4 into it just for that one week!)

I think if she'd known the key point of the book was to advertize other RYA goods and services she'd probably have just bought a lined notebook which is a far better logbook than anything anyone at the RYA can come up with AFAIK.

If she wanted to buy training she can find it on the web rather than paying for the information in printed form.

I use this method personally otherwise I would need a farkin great big book to detail the 97 thousand miles I've completed under sail.

That's my point. People do need a farkin great book. Yet the RYA sell a crappy book with 7 (barely) usable pages in it. It's a scam to rip off newbies who don't realize how much space they'll need and how few trips 35 is!

What a strange argument. The logbook is so poor that you yourself choose not to use it. Yet you defend selling to others!

 

[NorthUp]

I followed the link-
''RYA Sail Cruising Syllabus & Logbook''

OMG it cost £4-99 to non members- what a rip off!..sorry, but NO.
what did she expect - a leather bound ledger with 500 pages?


We used to give them (not the leather version!) away, included in the the cost of the course.



Declared interest-
RYA member
Advanced Powerboat Instructor, but not full time, with several other bits of paper

 

[gerry99]

I really am struggling to understand the vitriol against the RYA. Thankfully in this country nobody is forced to take any form of instruction or pass any exam to buy a boat and go sailing. We are probably the last or one of the last countries where this is the case, and I am sure if that is incorrect then the kindly folks in this forum will correct me

However, (and it is a big however) if, like me, your friend invites you out on his 30 ton 65ft steel hulled ketch to get some sailing in it seemed to me to be a good idea to get basic tuition purely for my own peace of mind and safety, and more importantly for the safety of others around me. This is my intro into sailing, something i never dreamed of doing but I got hooked and subsequently I bought my own yacht.

Having made an investment of many tens of thousands of pounds I thought it a good idea to be able to handle her safely and to protect my investment. That was my personal choice, nobody forced me to do it. I happen to think the RYA does a good job in its training but, and I do reiterate, there was no compulsion and I could have not bothered if I had a different mindset.

So why the vitriol against the RYA? Nobody is forcing anyone to join the RYA as a precondition or requirement to go sailing, its a personal choice that many people make but if you choose not to make it then good luck, but don't slag off an organisation that others are happy to join because they get something out of it. They see a benefit, others do not, each has a view and is entitled to it. If you see no benefit then don't join and go on your way and enjoy your sailing.

 

[capnsensible]

Er... No.

I keep my personal log very simple in the style of the 'personal log of cruises/races' and use a boat log if I wish to write a bit. I advise others to do the same if they intend to sail a lot.

But that is entirely up to them.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

OMG it cost £4-99 to non members- what a rip off!..sorry, but NO.

I don't use an RYA logbook.

At least one other person on this thread chooses not to use the RYA logbook.

That's two. I bet there's more.

The only people that every buy them are newbies who've been told that it's the 'proper' logbook.

It's a scam to sell **** to newbies.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What are you on about? What urban myth?

You're not aware of the 'proof of paid VAT' urban myth?

What are you on about here?

Apparently the French have a fixed penalty scheme to penalize yachtmen who do not carry an original SSR document. A few RYA member's have claimed this information came from the RYA. I looked into it and I think it's ****, but the source is the RYA. (or claimed to be and I can't see where else it can have come from.)

As already pointed out there is only one advert page, the rest is all content.

But people don't need 'content' in a log book. (and be honest the 'content' is purely information about RYA products and nothing else.) People buy a log book to record where they go and what they've done! Newbies are told the the RYA logbook is the 'proper' one and they buy it in their droves. If they want to know what they can buy form the RYA they can look online.

The culture of collecting certificates was not created by the RYA, its nation wide in all walks of life. The RYA have successfully lobbied for these certificates not to become compulsory in sailing, so that you have the freedom of choice. If you don’t want a training course then don’t buy one.

I do agree with you here and when I wrote I thought that was my weakest example. However TB who is probably the closer to the RYA than anyone has said that the RYA courses are the cheapest way to learn to sail. SO this is the message newbies are getting form the official body of the sport - a few grand on certificates is the 'cheap' way into the sport. I'd say that's to the detriment of sailors. I dont' see how you can argue it the other way.


http://www.rya.org.uk/shop/pages/pr...(RYA+Main)&type=BK(RYADefaultCatalog)&course=[/QUOTE]

 

[NorthUp]

That's two. I bet there's more.


.

I dont use it either- not since I filled in the first one I was given years ago, and then I only entered/ transferred the most relevant cruises that I could remember, to prove the requirements for the particular qualification I was aiming for at that time.

I now make do with 3 of 4 lines in an MS Word document, just the bare bones sufficient to prove I still go afloat and teach.
(This was good enough for a senior RYA examiner a few years ago, as I had it endorsed by a suitable merchant navy Captain as a true record.)

I think Toad's friend perhaps misunderstood the nature of the G15 'Syllabus and Logbook'

but thats no reason to damn the entire RYA!

Incidentally, the BSAC had the same format of logbook for qualifications many years ago, but we still managed to fill in the pages, and move on to bigger logbooks without any need to slag off the organisation

 

[Tranona]

Tim et al. You obviously have not come across Toad before.

You are wasting your time with Toad. You will discover that he always has to be right (even if he is wrong).

The VAT "urban myth" he refers to (and about which I agree) is merely a re-statement of official advice from HMRC. In fact the RYA has put a lot of effort into determining whether there are specific issues for yachtsmen. However, despite the evidence, they have been unable to convince HMRC to change their advice. Incidentally the advice is only that, and HMRC state it is not law, only their interpretation and as it has not been tested in the courts it is a bit of an impasse!

He is also wrong about the advice on ICC in Greece. Nowhere does the RYA say it is a requirement for chartering in Greece. Indeed Greece is one of the countries that does not officially recognise the ICC. However, Greek law does require that anybody skippering a Greek registered yacht must be able to demonstrate their competence. I have directed Toad to this piece of legislation already. The law is variably enforced because it does not lay down the specific methods required to demonstrate competence. The ICC is (among other documents) usually accepted by the Greek Port Officers who sign every charter permit for a Greek charter yacht - but they also accept other forms of evidence.

As to the French law, once again he has been advised of the relevant code by another forumite but was too lazy to follow it up. He has also been given first hand evidence by others of falling foul of this law (which incidentally applies to French yacht owners as well as visitors). However, as Toad always has to be right he refuses to accept this.

As to the rant about the "Log Book" words fail me.

So, please fellow forumites, do not feed this Toad as you cannot win and it is a complete waste of time.

Last you will hear from me on the subject.

 

[Ubergeekian]

While this is true, up to a point, I don't see that anyone has yet managed to identify any way in which the RYA has acted against their interests.

I typed a long reply to this on the train this evening, then got cut off and lost it.

<shakes tiny fist at T-Mobile>

Here's the gist. I think the RYA is playing a dangerous game by overemphasizing the need for training and qualifications. They may say

We believe that a comprehensive system of voluntary training and qualifications can make an important contribution to safety afloat. (I hope this is a reasonable paraphrase of the RYA position)

but governments hear or interpret it as

We believe that a comprehensive system of mandatory training and qualifications is essential for safety afloat

and start getting ideas. Compare it with the government position on British beef as a result of the BSE crisis:

We believe that British beef is perfectly safe to eat because we kill all the cows before they can show any symptoms and NO! FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T EAT ANY NERVOUS SYSTEM TISSUE sorry where were we .. oh yes, no problem at all. Lovely stuff, British beef. And safe. Well, apart from the bits we take out.

and the effect that had on our friends and neighbours in Europe. The RYA has a strong vested interest in having people do courses (quite apart from the safety argument, which is a good one) and I fear that there is a conflict of interest: the more they emphasize the need and benefit of training the more they undermine the case against compulsion.

I'm a romantic myself. I think the freedom to go to sea without qualification in anything that will float and almost anywhere is one of the last freedoms and I would hate to lose it. In that respect I believe that the RYA is, through naivete, commercial self-interest or both acting directly against my wishes and interests.

Note: my wishes and interests. I respect the other points of view, and if those holding them want to form an organisation and lobby, that's absolutely fine by me.

 

[mandlmaunder]

Not all myths are untrue

"Apparently the French have a fixed penalty scheme to penalize yachtmen who do not carry an original SSR document. A few RYA member's have claimed this information came from the RYA. I looked into it and I think it's ****, but the source is the RYA. (or claimed to be and I can't see where else it can have come from.)"

When approaching French St Marten in the west Indies about 2 years ago we were boarded by French Duannie(sp) 25 miles from the island and when given our (as it turned out) out of date SSR card were informed in a very friendly but quite serious way that should we try to enter the French side of St Marten we would be fined 400 eruo.

Cant see why they would enforce that law in the WI's and not in France itself.

Mark

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

When approaching French St Marten in the west Indies about 2 years ago we were boarded by French Duannie(sp) 25 miles from the island and when given our (as it turned out) out of date SSR card were informed in a very friendly but quite serious way that should we try to enter the French side of St Marten we would be fined 400 eruo.

You say 400, I've seen 300, 200 and 3000 euros quoted on YBW as well. (Nobody has taken my up on my offer of £100 to anyone posting a recepit from the fine.)

Lets say it's not a myth (I've no reason to disbelive you or anyone else).

The RYA are *still* causing all sorts of confusion by not simply stating what this law is and what the fixed penalty it.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The VAT "urban myth" he refers to (and about which I agree) is merely a re-statement of official advice from HMRC.

To the detriment of yachtsmen.

He is also wrong about the advice on ICC in Greece. Nowhere does the RYA say it is a requirement for chartering in Greece.

I can't be bothered to check now but it certainly stated that on their website in 2007 and anyone using the ybw search wisely should be able to find the exact text becasue I've quoted it here at some time over the last couple of years.

Toad always has to be right he refuses to accept this.

It's easy to always be right Tranona! Just check your facts before you post them!

 

[Cornishman]

I'm a romantic myself. I think the freedom to go to sea without qualification in anything that will float and almost anywhere is one of the last freedoms and I would hate to lose it. In that respect I believe that the RYA is, through naivete, commercial self-interest or both acting directly against my wishes and interests.

While I understand your desire to remain free to go to sea as you wish I must dispel a couple of myths in your post. To lend a little weight to my views I declare here that my interest in training with the RYA began in 1975 when I was invited to become a Yachtmaster Examiner, and it lasted for more than 30 years.
In those far off days Training Division devised an unofficial motto which holds good to this day "Education before legislation". Through education it was the desire of all of us to keep your romantic dreams alive and free from Government interference. So far it has seen off attempts by a few politicians to introduce "legislation". Far from being naieve, as you put it, the RYA keeps a watchful eye on the matter on behalf of all of us from dinghy sailors to circumnavigating cruisers, so far with success which is partly due to the weight of numbers of its membership.
During my time as examiner, instructor, demonstrator and theory tutor I have seen no evidence that the RYA is in any way a commercial concern. As has been explained elsewhere in this thread the fees you pay for instruction are paid to the organisation running the course who in turn employ the instructors and purchase teaching materials from the RYA. These organisations vary from local authority adult education to the many RYA recognised sea schools. Examination fees cover the costs of the examiner and administering the system. The only people who make money are the individuals involved, and none of us have become millionaires I can assure you. So you can see that the RYA is far from being "commercial".
RYA Certificates were never intended to qualify[/] the holder to do anything but instead were devised so that holders could be satisfied that they had reached certain levels of knowledge and experience. However, since the early days they have been kidnapped by other bodies, even in some cases by the Government, to use as qualifications. I believe the first time this happened was when the Thames Barge Association chose them which shows how highly they are regarded outside of the RYA.
I don't expect you to reach for your cheque book and sign up for membership well not immediately, but I hope that I have clarified any misunderstandings you might have had.

 

[capnsensible]

Toad,

You say repeatedly the RYA logbook is packed with adverts.

Fact: it isn't.

It's easy to be always right when you check your facts before posting.