RYA and the new Marine Bill

[timbartlett]

They are buying votes, surely the answer can't be this simple or you wouln't have needed to ask.

It's what is known as a rhetorical question.

The RYA supplies membership services to members. I don't see that as bribery.
If you want a membership service without being a member, in many cases you have the option of paying for it. I don't see that as bribery, either.

Some services (such as monitoring and opposing ill-conceived legislation) are indivisible: there is no way that non-members can avoid reaping the benefits, nor would the cost of providing the service be reduced if the benefits were restricted to members.

But considering how this argument started off, I think the idea that the RYA should provide all the benefits of membership free of charge to those who choose not to be members is, frankly, bizarre.

 

[Koeketiene]

Maybe you are right, but I just cannot see the justification:

You have a massave training and testing organisation in existance: why duplicate this? From a cost point of view it makes no sense (not the government is always guaranteed to produce sane/efficient ideas!).

Even if they decided that testing went under state control (RYA already issue ICC, so not guaranteed), the lions share of the cost would be in the training - and that would largely fall on the RYA.

First & foremost: the RYA sells RYA certificates.
From then onwards, pot luck.
Training costs for the RYA are minimal - all/most of the costs are borne by the sailing schools. They have to buy the certificates, pay the instructors, provide facilities & boats, ... The RYA just prints licenses (licensed to print money )
You may get value for money - you may not.

I used to teach RYA courses (up to Day Skipper) at one time.
Twice I wanted to 'fail' a student as I felt they weren't really up to scratch.
Twice I was overruled by the school's principal - if we fail them at DS they will simply go elsewhere.
This I felt made a mockery of the whole thing.
I wrote to the RYA - twice. First time not a word. Second time (recorded delivery) they acknowledged receipt, but nothing since then.
I no longer teach RYA courses.

If the the examination body was a government agency (like the DVLA for driving licenses) anyone could set up a Sailing School without taking any notice of the RYA. RYA certificates would become worthless.
And that's also why the RYA opposes compulsory licensing - because then they would lose their monopoly.

When it comes to training & schools - it's all about the money.

 

[Koeketiene]

I think the idea that the RYA should provide all the benefits of membership free of charge to those who choose not to be members is, frankly, bizarre.

Still waiting for 5

BTW: the govt has handed the RYA the monopoly of issuing the ICC - I fail to see that as a benefit.
Ofcom makes do with a reasonable, one-off charge - the RYA wants £39 every 5 years. Odd definition of a benefit

 

[Pye_End]

Ok that makes sense on how it all works.

So, in a post compulsory licence world, all users would be trained by independant training schools up to a certain standard (what standard?), for example day skipper, or maybe ICC standard, and then....? Preumably yachtmaster will not be required for all water users? So, still a need for a national training body as government wont fund/administer the next stage. So sailing schools will probably still offer RYA courses and training, in which case it may well be that the RYA administers it all anyway, as it is so much more simple.

Ok, so RYA has to get its cut for producing certificates. Makes sense as they are the ones who have set the whole thing up in the first place, and it does need to be funded somehow. They do have a business to run.

Like many here, I do not see RYA being a perfect organisation. It is made up like every other business - from people on the street, and I have never met a perfect person yet (apart from some characters on here of course).

If the RYA didn't exist, either we would end up with lots of small equivalents - non-standardised training; fractionalised representation; no central body to go to with issues (eg legal) etc. etc. If you are a member of your local club they might have to reproduce the functions of the RYA without the specialist knowledge. The alternative is another body fills the void, but then won't they be just the the RYA?

In the future, representation will become more and more of an issue. Government / EU red tape is not going to get any easier. We need representation on a big scale. Ok RYA are not saints but I cannot think of any other body that is able to do this. The only other thought is that with the growth of the EU perhaps we need an EU wide body to join - perhaps there is a French body that we should join instead?!

 

[Koeketiene]

Ok that makes sense on how it all works.

So, in a post compulsory licence world, all users would be trained by independant training schools up to a certain standard (what standard?), for example day skipper, or maybe ICC standard, and then....? Preumably yachtmaster will not be required for all water users?

Of course not - in the same way that not everyone requires an HGV license.
No different. You train for whatever license you require. Tests taken by 'Sailing DVLA'.
You could opt for sailing school training, home study, ... whatever.

No need for the RYA whatsoever.

So, still a need for a national training body as government wont fund/administer the next stage. So sailing schools will probably still offer RYA courses and training, in which case it may well be that the RYA administers it all anyway, as it is so much more simple.

The RYA has set a standard of sorts - what's left to administer?
It all stems from the RYA's ambition to become the governing body of sailing - whatever that might mean, but it sure as hell sounds important.

 

[ditchcrawler]

I have been a member of the RYA for many years.It started when I was a 21 year old keen dinghy racer.The legal dept have helped me out a couple of times.It is of course true that there are probably a lot of old farts in the organisation,but I do like the work that they do particularly in view of our Olympic success.I do not think this would happen if not for the support and trasining given by the RYA.I appreciate that things like lottery grants help as well.All told they of course could do better.I also think that £40 for your ICC cert is not bad value.Everyone is entitled to their view, but there are effectively a lot of people who benefit without paying.Why should they complain.

 

[Pye_End]

So, your argument is that there is a strong case for compulsory licencing, but RYA has flexed its considerable muscle and blocked this with the government as it is against the financial interest of the RYA.

Or - the governing bodies (whatever this means) have considered it, but cannot come up with a better system than exists at present.

I would like to think that the RYA was strong enough to promote its own self interest in this way as it would mean that it was a useful body to negotiate on our behalf, but find it pretty unlikely.

If you were to set up compulsory licences, how would you do them, and what would you put in them? Boating is so fundamentally different from driving that comparrisons are pretty hard to make. Driving a car is all about understanding the rules of the road, and showing that you are in control of your vehicle. Can't see a sensible way of applying this to a basic course in boating - one boater uses his boat up and down a river in a F2 for a couple of hours, another takes on long passages. One uses a chart plotter, another charts. One sails at night, anther may not. Then there are things like radar - should every user be trained in one? What about diesel engine course? Would you need a re-test when you changed boat to something bigger and more complex? Should everybody be tested at night, and up to what wind strength/sea condition? First aid. Sextants. AIS. etc.etc. Every item that you think of as missing from a basic 'driving test' will need to be taught by somebody else, under a nationally recognised scheme. Who organises it; sets the syllabus; makes sure the training is up to scratch; keeps it up to date; promotes and advertises it; produces a certificate that widely accepted and understood?

As to the cost of administering training - not being privvy to the RYA books I havn't a clue wich areas are money makers, and which get subsidised. However syllabuses have to be set. They no doubt change as the industry changes (eg introduction of GPS) and so the syllabuses, publications and training all need to change, just for starters. And then there are changes in legislation (eg CEVNI). All of these things have to be paid for one way or another. Then there is advertising, fixed costs (eg premesis), ensuring clubs. trainers are up to standard. All has to be paid for somehow. So how much do the RYA charge for issuing certificates? Mine have all been free, or included in the course fee.

 

[Cornishman]

It may well be a good organization but with 'Royal' as part of it's title it does not seem immediately accessible to me.
Although I have been mucking about in boats for something like 45 years this is the first time that I have actually seen it in action (& it is far from clear yet that it will protect us from the possible imposition of an anchoring ban in Studland Bay surly of paramount interest to all serious sailors)?
The Rights that I rely on have been hard fought & won by generations of mariners & I believe rightly or wrongly that they should be upheld by the Parliamentary system.I wish them well & if I had the money I might even join.
Regards KC.

Gosh, I guess the postman who works for ROYAL Mail has double troubles trying to deliver mail to you up your creek without a paddle and your objection to anything with 'royal' in its title. How do you keep Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs at bay?

 

[timbartlett]

Still waiting for 5

See www.rya.org.uk and take your pick. There are plenty to choose from.

BTW: the govt has handed the RYA the monopoly of issuing the ICC - I fail to see that as a benefit.

The benefit is that it isn't run by the likes of the DVLA. So your documents are less likely to get "lost", you won't be expected to pay a "penalty" if they are lost, and they won't eventually be sent back to you with the wrong details or with qualifications arbitrarily added or removed.

Ofcom makes do with a reasonable, one-off charge - the RYA wants £39 every 5 years. Odd definition of a benefit

OK, do without it then. It's not compulsory. Unlike anything that comes out of Ofcom

First & foremost: the RYA sells RYA certificates..

What are they supposed to do? Give them away??

Twice I wanted to 'fail' a student as I felt they weren't really up to scratch.

The Day Skipper is a training course, not a certificate of competence. There is no exam, so there can be no question of "pass" or "fail". If the instructor has failed to instruct, (for whatever reason -- not necessarily his fault) then there are a variety of solutions that do not involve the F word. Withholding a course completion certificate from a student who has completed the course is not the best or only option.

If the the examination body was a government agency (like the DVLA for driving licenses) anyone could set up a Sailing School without taking any notice of the RYA. RYA certificates would become worthless.

I think you mean DSA, not DVLA. But as you are rooting for the DVLA, let's run with that.... Most of the people at DVLA probably drive, so you'd expect them to have some empathy with other road users. But they don't. What on earth makes you think the training schemes would be any better if they were devised and run by people who knew nothing about boats, sailing, or the sea, who cared even less, and who are convinced that everyone outside the civil service is a liar or a thief (that's official DVLA policy: I have it in writing)?

 

[Adonnante]

who are convinced that everyone outside the civil service is a liar or a thief (that's official DVLA policy: I have it in writing)?[/QUOTE]

I take it you also ride a motorcycle Tim.

Cheers

Peter.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Renewed mine last year at no cost whatsoever......but then I'm happy to support an organisatioin that does actually attempt to represent the interests of the leisure sailor.

What organisation renewed yours, then? The RYA are reported to charge £40 and the BSAC £30.

 

[Bishop Terrorchoke]

What organisation renewed yours, then? The RYA are reported to charge £40 and the BSAC £30.

The RYA do it free for members.

BishopT

 

[Koeketiene]

See www.rya.org.uk and take your pick. There are plenty to choose from.

Really - think I must be having a 'blond' moment.

Could you point them out to me?

Edit:
Never mind - just leave it.
You're no more going to see the light than I'm likely to come over to your side.

But I do, and will continue to, take issue with the fact that the government has handed over the monopoly of issuing an official document (ICC) over to a private company.

A veritable testament to the RYA's clout - all hail the RYA

 

[Moodyjim]

Less than £8 per year? crikey that's cheap!!

 

[Koeketiene]

The Day Skipper is a training course, not a certificate of competence. There is no exam, so there can be no question of "pass" or "fail".

Oh yes, it is.
If you've got DS (theory & practical) you can 'claim' your ICC - which is a certificate of competence.
Hence, DS should be treated as such.

 

[timbartlett]

Originally Posted by timbartlett
The Day Skipper is a training course, not a certificate of competence.

Oh yes, it is.

Oh no it isn't.
Let's discuss a difference of opinion, by all means, but at least get your facts right.
Here's the list of certificates that can be commercially endorsed (i.e. that have the blessing of your beloved government):-
* RYA Yachtmaster Ocean Certificate of Competence
* RYA Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence
* RYA Coastal Skipper Certificate of Competence
* RYA Day Skipper (tidal) practical course completion certificate
* RYA Day Skipper (non-tidal) practical course completion certificate, only if supported by a Day Skipper shorebased course completion certificate
* RYA Advanced Powerboat Certificate of Competence
* RYA Advanced Powerboat course completion certificate (only if issued before January 1, 2005)
* RYA Powerboat Level 2 course completion certificate

 

[NorthUp]

..............I do, and will continue to, take issue with the fact that the government has handed over the monopoly of issuing an official document (ICC) over to a private company...........

Got a TV license? Private company collecting the loot.

You should take this up with your MP, not the RYA.

Edit: and you cannot stand for election to the TV Licensing board- even if you have one!

 

[Koeketiene]

Oh no it isn't.

Please, READ what I said

If you've got DS (theory & practical) you can 'claim' your ICC - which is a certificate of competence.
Hence, DS should be treated as such.

 

[timbartlett]

If you've got DS (theory & practical) you can 'claim' your ICC - which is a certificate of competence.
Hence, DS should be treated as such.

Please, READ what I said

It is your opinion that it should be.
But the fact is that it is not.
It doesn't matter how often I read and re-read what you wrote: it is still wrong.
And I'm more interested in facts than in your opinion.
PS. THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT

 

[Koeketiene]

It is your opinion that it should be.
But the fact is that it is not.

It's not just my opinion - it IS fact

Might I suggest that you contact the RYA (certification@rya.org.uk).

If you hold RYA DS (theory and practical) the RYA will issue an ICC (for the bargain basement price of £39)

And I'm more interested in facts than in your opinion.

Doesn't look like it

PS. THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT

There obviously is.
At the moment I'm not sure if you're just obtuse or ...