Rusty keel bolts on otherwise very tidy boat - should I walk away?

[Fr J Hackett]

why?

what if he did have it surveyed, and the surveyor found big problems?

it depends on the contract, but don't most UK contracts allow the buyer to re-negotiate or walk away with deposit if fault are found - either in survey or sea trial?

It's a £5K boat ( a lot of money to some) so likely to be a private sale with at best a some sort of Proforma RYA or even a verbal agreement. I favour Tranonas advice if the keel joint looks OK externally leave well alone and sort out the leak and clean them up.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

On a £5K boat, I'd say you're doing well if only one window leaks. Double the price and I reckon that still applies.

We bought a boat for over 40k with leaking windows. If we’d been buying the same boat with no issues at all, it would have been over twice as much. You just get on with it, when paying below par.

 

[Laser310]

It's a £5K boat ( a lot of money to some) so likely to be a private sale with at best a some sort of Proforma RYA or even a verbal agreement. I favour Tranonas advice if the keel joint looks OK externally leave well alone and sort out the leak and clean them up.

i agree with that

I am just asking about what is "normal" for a UK contract.

I was given one by a UK broker a few months ago, and I had a fair bit of freedom to exit the contract after deposit. I didn't go to deposit, so I didn't test it.

 

[Nick Vass]

Hi all,

I recently put a deposit on a 28ft 1983 sail boat. She's in great shape in almost all aspects, but I've found some rust on the keel bolts. I'm trying to work out how much of a problem it's likely to be.

The threads seem pretty damaged although I've not had a chance to clean them up at all because it's not my boat yet - but I'm also trying to work out if I'm about to make an expensive mistake

I'd be interested in hearing options from those that know better than me, she's in the water currently. Maybe it's worth buying her and having her lifted and dealing with this?

Thanks in advance

George

Looks like a Moody 28
Moody keel bolts are made of high tensile steel rather than stainless steel and they go rusty like that. In fact I have seen a lot worse.
If you remove one nut at a time and refit it you should not disturb the hull to keel bond and you should find that the stud is clean under the nut.
I would wire brush and paint them and then keep the bilge dry.

 

[Mark-1]

If you remove one nut at a time and refit it you should not disturb the hull to keel bond and you should find that the stud is clean under the nut.
I would wire brush and paint them and then keep the bilge dry.

So that thread can be cleaned up to the point where the nut can be wound off and replaced? Literally just wire brush, heat and tap?

I don't doubt that it is sound if left alone, but to my totally untrained eye it looks like there's zero chance of getting the nuts off undamaged.

(Genuine question.)

 

[zoidberg]

I've found some rust on the keel bolts. I'm trying to work out how much of a problem it's likely to be.

The threads seem pretty damaged although I've not had a chance to clean them up at all because it's not my boat yet - but I'm also trying to work out if I'm about to make an expensive mistake

Tranona's advice, echoed further down, is sound.

For greater reassurance, for a few ££ get an experienced shipwright to have a look. His PRACTICAL experience is likely to be worth following.
Certainly, it should be possible and economic for him to draw one bolt for examination, then replace it - with new if advised. Not major surgery....

 

[pumasong]

Been making some calls about this today. I've had a few really interesting conversations.

The surveyor mentioned that it would be worth getting the keel bolts looked at by a marine engineer, and I then discussed the issue with a local yacht services company (Tim Nichol/Eastbourne - super helpful guy). His feeling was that the exposed bit of thread will be by far the worst of the whole stud, due to its exposure to air and water (and saltwater). It's super unlikely that there is any moisture ingress through the keel joint as the bilge only has a small amount of water in there, and the bilge pump isn't operational. So it seems that it's probably due to weeping seals and such but not a major fault along the keel. The thread within the keel is greased and effectively water-sealed so should be in decent shape, per the YouTube video that @PabloPicasso posted earlier.

All that said - we agreed that it was worth getting them replaced, and he reckoned that with a bit of persuasion from a lump hammer, they would be able to replace them all. He suggested that we get the boat lifted this side of Christmas, giving a chance to do this but also have a poke around underneath to make sure there's nothing else amiss. He reckoned somewhere in the region of £1K to do the work and buy replacement studs, plus lifting/launching costs. My guess is that the nut is fused to the thread so it'll come off together and unscrew out of the keel.

I think on that basis I'm going to go ahead with it. I'll see if I can wiggle a bit off the price, but it's already pretty cheap for what is otherwise a very tidy boat, so I think on balance it's still a good deal. And once this is done, I'll have plenty of confidence in her seaworthiness.

Looks like a Moody 28

She's an Achilles 840 - but same size and keel bolt material it seems

 

[doug748]

why?

what if he did have it surveyed, and the surveyor found big problems?

it depends on the contract, but don't most UK contracts allow the buyer to re-negotiate or walk away with deposit if fault are found - either in survey or sea trial?

On a more expensive boat you would make an offer and pay a deposit subject to survey which gives you the right to re-negotiate the price or exit the deal if the findings do not suit.

In this case it depends on what was actually said and done.
I am assuming the OP has inspected the boat, made an offer, had it accepted, and paid a deposit - with no conditions. If you want to make conditions you should state them: subject to sea trial, evidence of ownership, hull inspection or whatever. It seems he now wants to negotiate a lower price because he has had second thoughts over the boats condition.
He may well get away with it in the present market but at the very least you risk looking like a jerk or the seller may refuse to lower the price and seek to keep the deposit.

.

 

[ducked]

I've always assumed that irrespective of the legal position, without prior agreement to the contrary I've lost the deposit if I back out, and have in fact sacrificed the deposit on a Ford A camper van I had second thoughts about.

That is, after all, what a deposit is for.

Served me right. I had third thoughts too but didn't try to do anything about them since I already looked, felt, and was, a twerp.

 

[Biggles Wader]

If you like the boat and the price I'd just buy it and go sailing. It would be unlucky if the keel fell off anytime soon and you will need to lift out and antifoul in the next year or so. Have a good look at the joint then rather than spending money now. I suspect the boat will be fine for many years and you will find plenty of other things to spend money on as you sail and use it. Nice boat for £5000.

 

[Tranona]

I've always assumed that irrespective of the legal position, without prior agreement to the contrary I've lost the deposit if I back out, and have in fact sacrificed the deposit on a Ford A camper van I had second thoughts about.

That is, after all, what a deposit is for.

Served me right. I had third thoughts too but didn't try to do anything about them since I already looked, felt, and was, a twerp.

That really does depend on the specific circumstances. The types of contracts used in boat transactions are very well constructed with clear terms and conditions with regard to what happens if either party wishes to withdraw. The deposit is normally refunded minus any costs. I withdrew from one on the basis of faults found in the survey and deposit minus the yard costs to haul the boat.

Written contracts for other purchases may be different and deposits non refundable, particularly if the goods to be supplied are specific to that transaction, for example custom furniture or sails. If there is no written contract then it will depend on the evidence of what was agreed verbally between the two parties. Payment of a deposit per se does not make a contract. It can be seen as an expression of intent or as a paer payment, for example in the case of sails it is set to cover the cost of materials specific to the sail.

 

[PabloPicasso]

Been making some calls about this today. I've had a few really interesting conversations.

The surveyor mentioned that it would be worth getting the keel bolts looked at by a marine engineer, and I then discussed the issue with a local yacht services company (Tim Nichol/Eastbourne - super helpful guy). His feeling was that the exposed bit of thread will be by far the worst of the whole stud, due to its exposure to air and water (and saltwater). It's super unlikely that there is any moisture ingress through the keel joint as the bilge only has a small amount of water in there, and the bilge pump isn't operational. So it seems that it's probably due to weeping seals and such but not a major fault along the keel. The thread within the keel is greased and effectively water-sealed so should be in decent shape, per the YouTube video that @PabloPicasso posted earlier.

All that said - we agreed that it was worth getting them replaced, and he reckoned that with a bit of persuasion from a lump hammer, they would be able to replace them all. He suggested that we get the boat lifted this side of Christmas, giving a chance to do this but also have a poke around underneath to make sure there's nothing else amiss. He reckoned somewhere in the region of £1K to do the work and buy replacement studs, plus lifting/launching costs. My guess is that the nut is fused to the thread so it'll come off together and unscrew out of the keel.

I think on that basis I'm going to go ahead with it. I'll see if I can wiggle a bit off the price, but it's already pretty cheap for what is otherwise a very tidy boat, so I think on balance it's still a good deal. And once this is done, I'll have plenty of confidence in her seaworthiness.


She's an Achilles 840 - but same size and keel bolt material it seems

We used an

Been making some calls about this today. I've had a few really interesting conversations.

The surveyor mentioned that it would be worth getting the keel bolts looked at by a marine engineer, and I then discussed the issue with a local yacht services company (Tim Nichol/Eastbourne - super helpful guy). His feeling was that the exposed bit of thread will be by far the worst of the whole stud, due to its exposure to air and water (and saltwater). It's super unlikely that there is any moisture ingress through the keel joint as the bilge only has a small amount of water in there, and the bilge pump isn't operational. So it seems that it's probably due to weeping seals and such but not a major fault along the keel. The thread within the keel is greased and effectively water-sealed so should be in decent shape, per the YouTube video that @PabloPicasso posted earlier.

All that said - we agreed that it was worth getting them replaced, and he reckoned that with a bit of persuasion from a lump hammer, they would be able to replace them all. He suggested that we get the boat lifted this side of Christmas, giving a chance to do this but also have a poke around underneath to make sure there's nothing else amiss. He reckoned somewhere in the region of £1K to do the work and buy replacement studs, plus lifting/launching costs. My guess is that the nut is fused to the thread so it'll come off together and unscrew out of the keel.

I think on that basis I'm going to go ahead with it. I'll see if I can wiggle a bit off the price, but it's already pretty cheap for what is otherwise a very tidy boat, so I think on balance it's still a good deal. And once this is done, I'll have plenty of confidence in her seaworthiness.


She's an Achilles 840 - but same size and keel bolt material it seems

We had crusty looking keel bolts.
The impact drill worked very well, but I will emphasise that it was a full 5min+ of active impacting work with it before the stud came out.

That felt like it was "A VERY LOOONG TIME" to be hammering away. So much so that we thought it was a no hoper. But we persevered and to our pleasant surprise all worked out very well.

Note, impact drills are a vey different beast to hammer drills. Always use sockets designed for impact drills, normal ones just shatter.

Pull the aft most keel bolt as these tend to be the ones which take the brunt of any impact and so tend to be more likely to have an issue. If that is good why pull the rest?

Good luck, let us know how you get on, and go sailing.

 

[Mark-1]

All that said - we agreed that it was worth getting them replaced, and he reckoned that with a bit of persuasion from a lump hammer, they would be able to replace them all. He suggested that we get the boat lifted this side of Christmas, giving a chance to do this but also have a poke around underneath to make sure there's nothing else amiss. He reckoned somewhere in the region of £1K to do the work and buy replacement studs, plus lifting/launching costs.

So pushing 1/3 of the price of the boat and that assumes everything goes smoothly which is far from certain. All that despite having pretty good evidence that there's nothing wrong.

There are many wiser heads on here and I have zero experience of keel bolts but waiting for seeping seems like a far better plan. (Seeping which may never come.)

Lovely boat, I hope you have many years of adventure from her.

 

[ducked]

That really does depend on the specific circumstances. The types of contracts used in boat transactions are very well constructed with clear terms and conditions with regard to what happens if either party wishes to withdraw. The deposit is normally refunded minus any costs. I withdrew from one on the basis of faults found in the survey and deposit minus the yard costs to haul the boat.

Written contracts for other purchases may be different and deposits non refundable, particularly if the goods to be supplied are specific to that transaction, for example custom furniture or sails. If there is no written contract then it will depend on the evidence of what was agreed verbally between the two parties. Payment of a deposit per se does not make a contract. It can be seen as an expression of intent or as a paer payment, for example in the case of sails it is set to cover the cost of materials specific to the sail.

Well, ok

But (at the risk of sounding like a lawyer) that would be the LEGAL position, which I specifically excluded, in writing, in the post you are responding to.

I do have a written "bill of sale" for my current boat, which maybe constitutes a contract, but I wrote it myself, and it contains the phrase "sold as seen, with all faults".

Not very yachty, perhaps, but then I'm not.

 

[ducked]

Pull the aft most keel bolt as these tend to be the ones which take the brunt of any impact and so tend to be more likely to have an issue. If that is good why pull the rest?

I've seen the recommendation that any bolts pulled should be replaced with new, given the hassle of getting them out in the first place. Can't remember where, but somewhere fairly authoritative.

So if someone else has been there before you and followed the same procedure, which on an old boat seems quite possible, pulling one bolt, especially the aftmost, may give you an entirely false sense of security.

Even if they didn't replace the sampled bolt, they would almost certainly re-goop it, which might be enough to make a significant difference, especially if the goop they use is more effective than the original.

Out of curiosity, what did you do?

 

[jakew009]

Looks like a Moody 28
Moody keel bolts are made of high tensile steel rather than stainless steel and they go rusty like that. In fact I have seen a lot worse.
If you remove one nut at a time and refit it you should not disturb the hull to keel bond and you should find that the stud is clean under the nut.
I would wire brush and paint them and then keep the bilge dry.

Would your recommendation in a survey be to try and remove a nut and check?

I suspect the stud would come out before the nut comes off but that’s another issue.

 

[Tranona]

Well, ok

But (at the risk of sounding like a lawyer) that would be the LEGAL position, which I specifically excluded, in writing, in the post you are responding to.

I do have a written "bill of sale" for my current boat, which maybe constitutes a contract, but I wrote it myself, and it contains the phrase "sold as seen, with all faults".

Not very yachty, perhaps, but then I'm not.

As I said, it would depend on the circumstances. There is no definitive law that covers what happens to deposits if the sale does not go through.

A bill of Sale is nothing to do witth the contract that covers the transaction. It is evidence of title, but really only "good" evidence if signed by the seller as it is s/he that is transferring title to you. The contract sets the rules for the transaction. In the absence of a written contract , established contract law takes over with its well established principles and case law.

 

[Tamar]

It least they are not glassed over like some boats I've sailed on.
As others have said, if it puts your mind at rest draw one bolt and take it from there. I would resist getting ' professionals' involved at this stage as they have a vested interest in making money.

 

[Mark-1]

As others have said, if it puts your mind at rest draw one bolt and take it from there.

...although I suspect that's going to be a job for after purchase. "I'd like to disturb the keelbolts on your 43yo £5k boat before I decide if I'm going to buy it" is only going to result in one response.

 

[ithet]

My previous boat, a Moody 28, had far more rust around the exposed part of the bolts than the OP picture. I cleaned up with wire brush and they looked almost like new. Remember rust expands to 15x original metal.