Rocna anchors - hard to come by

[Anonymous]

The original Spade is assembled with one bolt, no welding, as far as I know. I understood that it is forged and then weighted with lead. There is a new low-cost version from the same designer...maybe that's what they are referring to? I think that the low cost version is called the Sword but from what you have posted the original Spade seems to be high tensile steel....you can't cast high tensile steel, I believe? Or it would be a bit pointless, anyway.

 

[AncoraLatina]

[ QUOTE ]

<span style="color:blue"> I see no reason for any particular concerns in welding Bisalloy 80 to mild steel. </span>

[/ QUOTE ]


I’m absolutely not competent neither in Metallurgy nor in welding... but searching on the web, I can find comments such as:

- ASTM A514 ( equivalent to Bisalloy 80 ) and A514M-05 high-strength, low-alloy, quenched-and-tempered steels……. Although they have been available for many years, they continue to pose some distinct challenges for welders.

- high-strength material ASTM A514/514M-05…. joining it successfully requires paying close attention to the preheat temperature, interpass temperature, and filler metal.

- I have used ASTM 514 in the past. It is excellent material. Be careful if you are welding. Not all welders and welding process are appropriate for A514.

- This grade of steel may be susceptible to cracking in the heat-affected zone of welds

- A514 can be welded using a low-hydrogen electrode Shielded Metal Arc Welding (SMAW), Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW) or Submerged Arc Welding (SAW) process. Care must be taken when welding A514 due to its susceptibility to hydrogen cracking in the weld heat affected zone.

etc...

 

[AncoraLatina]

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> Is the Spade forged </span> ?

[/ QUOTE ] brake press shaped and welded

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> The CQR is forged </span> ,

[/ QUOTE ] Yes it’s the only one forged anchor on the market -at least the shank and the center of the plough are forged, then the "blade" is welded...

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> and possibly the Bruce </span> ?

[/ QUOTE ] no : cast

 

[Chris_Robb]

[ QUOTE ]
Those interested in further debate as to the relative properties of certain designs may like to look here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Vyv - this seems to be a blatant attack on Manson. If the Manson is as bad as they suggest - quotes from a yachtsman who had a Manson, but who could never get it to set - This is most certainly not my experiance!!! Also the bits about the deficiencies in the design of the shank weld to the fluke etc.

Were you happy about the content before publishing it on the web????

 

[vyv_cox]

<<< Were you happy about the content before publishing it on the web???? >>>

Eh? I certainly didn't publish it. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Chris_Robb]

[ QUOTE ]
<<< Were you happy about the content before publishing it on the web???? >>>

Eh? I certainly didn't publish it. Don't shoot the messenger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - wrong word. I meant - were you happy with the content before supplying the link to it?

 

[AncoraLatina]

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> I can't let this misinformation about Rocna pass without comment.</span>

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> Sorry - wrong word. I meant - were you happy with the content before supplying the link to it </span> ?

[/ QUOTE ]


An Overview of the Rocna Anchor - History, design, and construction

It would be interesting to listen to Rocna people about the history of the design of the Rocna anchor ??

- The « BSH » (big stupid hoop) principle, is not an original Rocna Idea, but first patented by Peter Bruce some 60 years ago and broadly used by the German Bügel anchor .

- The Concave blade is « borrowed » from the Spade and the Sword anchors

- The shank looks quite similar to the one of the Delta anchor..

- The fixation of the BSH onto the blade has been modified to copy the one of the Supreme

- Who invented the slotted shank of the Rocna RRR ??

Who copied who ?? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Mansonanchors55]

VYM, thanks for publishing that link, you’ve stated it as “Below you can read the actual situation, from the horse's mouth”

This is quite incorrect. It isn’t an actual situation. It is malicious and incorrect propaganda from a competitor about our product.

To reaffirm. Manson is a manufacturer of anchors, we employ 30 staff, our welders have been Lloyds Register of Shipping approved and the building process of the Supreme has been review by Lloyds Register’s Naval Architects and also approved.

Manson never copied the design of Rocna. However the Rocna isn’t an invention. Peter Smith himself said he used the Delta shank exactly because it was the best one and folded a Bugel in half. Is there anything else novel to the Rocna than that? Please explain what? In recent years in anchor design, just like in yacht design there haven’t been great advances. There have been progressions. Yachts sailing to windward instead of following tradewinds was a large revolution. Having a bulb at the end of a keel, revolution. New materials have carved the largest path in aiding lighter spars and hulls, FEA has also helped, that is progression.

Perhaps the notable three anchor design revolutions were the CQR, the Bruce, and the Spade. All other designs on the market are derivations/mixtures of these three and ones before.

We have never said a bad word about any other manufacturer of anchors. However a lot of other anchor companies (Delta CQR Claw & Rocna) aren’t actually ‘manufacturers’. They are contract manufactured by engineering firms. Some others are manufactured in house (Manson range, Fortress, Spade) Whilst contract manufacturing isn’t necessarily a negative, when we – Manson - have a factory of 30 workers, all certified to the one of the only companies in the world that certifies anchor manufacturer that counts for a lot. It means we have systems set up to make anchors. Finely refined systems. Do any contract manufacturers have an in house certified and calibrated 50tonne anchor testing jig?

The reason our product is cheaper is very simple. Less bites of the cherry on the path to market and a far more efficient production line.

The link you gave was a completely misleading account of our product, our techniques and our quality. Perhaps before you post a link like that giving it validation you should email us and ask if it is true. Research before validation. Quite a lot in the public domain isn’t true. You can go to the movies each week and see men in tight pants flying through the sky, it isn’t actually real.

What is real is an anchor is a safety device, arguably the most important piece of equipment to be on a boat and we here at Manson (a second generation family owned business which started making anchors in 1970’s) are all boaters too. We use the product and take the fact that people choose to put their safety in our hands with the respect that deserves.

So please don’t insult us, and our manufacturing, and our solely dedicated team of workers and pay any homage to the misleading rantings of a competitor. We sell our product solely on it’s merits and wish every other manufacturer of anchors would do the same.

Manson Anchors.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

An excellent response. I applaud you for having the decency to not malign any other anchor in your post.

Manson have just gone up in my estimation.

 

[Slowtack]

Ive previously used CQRs and Danforth anchors and have just bought a Manson after much research and consideration of various reviews and viewpoints on numerous websites etc.
Despite seeing some adverse theoretical opinions, I based my decision on the fact that they seem to work well in practice.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have no connection with Rocna or any other anchor manufacturer. The link is in the public domain, where anyone can read it. When I posted it I wrote:

'Those interested in further debate as to the relative properties of certain designs may like to look here.'

It makes certain points that have been printed in these forums on a number of previous occasions. I did not say that I supported those views, but further up the thread I did make the point that I don't understand why anchor manufacturers find it necessary to attack their competitors. I applaud the fact that Manson appear not to do so.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Vyv - I suppose my concern here was that - knowing Rocna's predisposition to mud slinging, you gave the link, which effectively allowed Rocna to sling further mud - if you get my point.

I have a private email from Manson about some of the allegations, all of which are refuted, but which also talks about welding matters on the other party stock to fluke, no names being mentioned as Manson have no wish to get into the mudslinging!

Anyway - I take it that you are off to warmer parts soon - so have a good summer! I am having to stay in the UK for another year, due to ancient mother going down hill rather rapidly......

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Vyv - I suppose my concern here was that - knowing Rocna's predisposition to mud slinging, you gave the link, which effectively allowed Rocna to sling further mud - if you get my point.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't want to get involved between the two companies but it should be said that at times there can be mud to sling! I don't know the truth of the matter here but as I understood it, Rocna developed their anchor. Obviously it has similarities with other existing anchors just as you'd expect a new car maker to make cars with four wheels and a steering wheel!

Manson have been making copy anchors for years and tell you on their website all about it.

Now, I understood and here I could be wrong that Manson to a large extent copied the design features of the Rocna after the Rocna had been demonstrated to be better than the CQR, Bruce, etc. If someone had ripped-off my design in my own marketplace, I'd be a pit pissed-off myself. But, as I said, I don't know for a fact that this is what actually happened but if it had, I could understand some of the aggro.

It would be useful if we knew the date on which Rocna launched their anchor and the date on which Manson launched their similar anchor --- if this is true then there would needed to be time for that to happen.

However, of course, this story, if true, would not have any bearing on which product has the best performance, strength or quality control which are the only factors that should interest the yachtsman, along with price.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Hi - when I was involved in selling, it was always drummed into me that you should never sling mud at the oposition! Manson seem to understand this, the other party cleary doesn't. Never mind. I made my mind up when I purchased the Manson, on the basis of the quality of the product. Rocna mudslinging probably pushed me towards Manson! Rocna giving the aire of a slightly unprofessional approach, and Manson - of real professionalism.

As to who designed what first - I think that they all really followed after the Bugle type, so I really think this is a non issue! I am extremely happy with the quality - and how it sets!

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi - when I was involved in selling, it was always drummed into me that you should never sling mud at the oposition!

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think that's the rule today. Look at politics, and that's 'selling' and 'advertising'. Quite a lot of large firms sling mud. If I was buying either of those anchors I'd look at price...BUT there was a picture on a YBW thread recently of a Manson Supreme rusted to pieces, practically, and Manson, although they are watching this board and contributing, have yet to explain how one of their anchors could have got into such a state -- unless I missed their reply, but I don't think so.

 

[Mansonanchors55]

Lemain, we had explained on another post on another site about this. Please check, it was a detailed response. We found it amazing how many sites in such a short space in time these photos were posted at.
Note, the owner of the anchor has never contacted us about this issue. Without his input it is very hard to solve/answer the issue however we would speculate firstly that either his boat or one he was parked close to is out of balance and the boat was using the anchor like an anode. But I can't diagnose this issue from a computer in NZ and until the owner contacts us it is very hard to make assumptions from a desk.

That is of course assuming the photos are valid, or that the damage to the anchor is valid and not yet another Hollywood creation - makeup and special effects.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Lemain, we had explained on another post on another site about this. Please check, it was a detailed response. We found it amazing how many sites in such a short space in time these photos were posted at.

[/ QUOTE ] I am talking about one photo posted here. I only know about that one single photo and only the details that were posted here...I am not involved in any way other than as a forum user. You say that there are other photos of rusty Manson Supremes on other sites? I haven't seen any others on other sites, but then again, I mostly use YBW. Maybe other Manson owners can feedback any concerns they have about rust, serious or incipient, and that will help your design team to identify the nature and cause of your problem?

[ QUOTE ]
Note, the owner of the anchor has never contacted us about this issue. Without his input it is very hard to solve/answer the issue however we would speculate firstly that either his boat or one he was parked close to is out of balance and the boat was using the anchor like an anode. But I can't diagnose this issue from a computer in NZ and until the owner contacts us it is very hard to make assumptions from a desk.

[/ QUOTE ]
It was a photograph posted on this forum, YBW, of a Manson Supreme in a rusted condition. It was not the owner who posted the picture but an ordinary forum member, I think.

[ QUOTE ]
That is of course assuming the photos are valid, or that the damage to the anchor is valid and not yet another Hollywood creation - makeup and special effects.

[/ QUOTE ]As I understood it, he saw the anchor and was surprised that such a modern well-known anchor was in that condition and took a photo. That's how his report came across, anyway. Do you get many "Hollywood Creations" of rusted Mansons? I've never come across this issue before with any other anchor, or anchor manufacturer.

As I said earlier, if you can give us details here of the sites on which rusty Manson Supremes have been featured maybe folk here can help to shed some light on your problem. It is probably worth a try, anyway. Good luck with it. I, myself, have a very new Delta so I can't give you any relevant information other than it seems to be well-made and the galvanising looks like a good hot-dip.

 

[AncoraLatina]

Lemain, are you talking about this photo ??

Poor galvanisation!

I assum the photos are valid , and they are not not yet another Hollywood creation - makeup and special effects !!!.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Lemain, are you talking about this photo ??

Poor galvanisation!

I assum the photos are valid , and they are not not yet another Hollywood creation - makeup and special effects !!!.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that is from another forum but it looks like the same pictures. I was referring to the post on this thread........

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2166264/an//page//vc/1

Where the poster noelex - a regular poster to this forum said.....

"I took these photos recently of a rusty Manson Supreme with a bent tip"

If you are wondering whether this was a 'Hollywood Creation" we only have to ask noelex. Why don't you PM him/her? There is a Private Messaging service on this board. I have always taken forum posters at their word and if noelex says he took the photo on the beach my first reaction is to believe him. If you say it's staged then that is a pretty serious allegation. It would be nice to get to the bottom of this.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have just read through the link provided earlier, where as far as I know this photograph was originally posted. The photograph was taken somewhere in the Med, where the anchor was seen lying with its chain on a pallet under the bow.

There seems to be nothing too sinister about the bending, simply a result of force exceeding design strength, something that can happen due to a variety of causes. In my travels I have seen many bent and fractured anchors: doesn't mean they were intrinsically weak.

No explanation has been given for the galvanising failure, although it has been said that galvanising is more difficult to apply to higher strength steels, such as the shank is made from. Manson say it is extremely rare and I believe them.

Interestingly, the concept of lowering all chain and the anchor to the ground seems to be completely alien to USA contributors of that forum. I wonder if leaving the anchor inside the locker, in relatively warm temperatures for an extended period may be the cause of the problem?