RNLI+MCA+RYA

[halcyon]

Re: Driving test

Got my membership.

Little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, going to night school for a winter does not enable you to go to sea. But then we try to put boats into little boxes now, based on theoretical calculations, ability or experience are starting to count for little these days.
Is boating going the same way as cars, lad by us is not yet old enougth for a licence, yet his dad has bought him a Vauxhall Astra GTE for when he passes his test !.
We now by-pass the old banger, the same with boats, why own that old 18 footer that you spent all you time patching up, boat and engine, when with modern finance you can by a 25/30 knot powerboat to learn in.


Brian

 

[Jeremy_W]

Re: Driving test

"Other countries have shown that when a compulsory licencing system is in operation then once a person has the required minimum that is all they usually bother with".

NOT ALWAYS: I was quite heartened to learn from the instructor on my Coastal Skipper course that he had been teaching a bunch of Germans the previous week. They all, naturally, had the regulation statutory minimum Driving Licence but wanted to increase their skills. Day Skipper Practical was, in their view, a step up from the German qualification of the time (ten years ago).

 

[Guest]

Before engaging in detailed debate, one should view these 'rescue' statistics as suspect - no, correct that: they are ludicrous. The figures would mean 45 persons every day of the year including Christmas, Boxing day and mid-winter time.
The MCGA (a union type organization) have reasons for inflating such figures.

 

[Chris_Stannard]

RNLI -Statistics

I did an analysis of the RNLI's figures for an article for my club magasine, which I believe was correct.
In the last year there were 152 deaths at sea of which eight were crewmembers of sailing yachts. There were over 6,800 calls for the services of the RNLI lifeboats. Of these about 1150 were to sailing yachts and around 750 to large power yachts. This doesn’t include for example boats used for fishing or for diving. Of these calls, to yachts and power boats, nearly 400 were for vessels that had gone aground, 650 were for machinery failure, over 150 were for leaks and there were even 30 for skippers who did not know were they were.
The trouble with the RYA is that not everyone who sails belongs, many do not. I believe that complusory qualification is the way to go because at least it will make sure that there is one person on the boat who has an idea of what is going on.
I believe that the French lifeboat service do not charge for saving you, but they do charge for towing your boat in. It probably helps to keep the number of calls down.
I personally believe that in some respects the RNLI has lost its way a bit, with the great glass palace at Poole, which is a monument to self perpetuating bureaucracy (cant spell but you know what I mean). But I have nothing but admiration for the lifeboat crews and their dedication and courage. They deserve our support

Chris Stannard

 

[ParaHandy]

With greatest respect, I think you can take them as being sufficiently accurate otherwise all individual CG station masters are fabricating data as are the RNLI and I would believe them rather than your opinion. The daily rate rises by several orders of magnitude during August.

 

[bigmart]

If you look at my posts in the Cats Pidgeons & Coastguards Thread earlier in this forum you will see the Coastguard barracking me for not telling them I didn't need rescuing.

So how do you act with self sufficiency. If you read the thread does this mean that I am now a statistic with an engine failure blot on my copybook.

You can't win. I tell you the figures, will be made to prove, whatever the bureaucrats want to prove, & scant respect will be shown the the needs of the recreational boater.

 

[Guest]

I'm going to put my non-seagoing, messing-about-on-the-river oar in here (or should that be quant) but I think it is relevant, so do bear with me.

I was interested in the remarks made by Claymore and one or two others about not letting go old skills or attitudes that may have been worth preserving.

I'm learning that in my neck of the woods the real purist's boat is a racing halfdecker with no engine - they are so self-reliant, and so secure in their sailing skills, that it appears even an engine would be an admission of - what? Not failure exactly, more being second-rate.

Everything is done on sails, experience, knowledge of the local conditions and, when all else fails, a long pole.

I hope I can sail that well one day.

Fair blows the breeze for Horning...

 

[peterb]

Day Skipper

For the last 10 years the Day Skipper course has included:

"10 Engines
Knows how to change fuel and water filters, pump impeller and bleed fuel system."

The RYA Diesel course is a voluntary extra, but a well worthwhile one.

 

[ParaHandy]

Re: Day Skipper

I can't fault what you say but "knows how to" is not as direct as
9. Emergency situations
Is able to..........
I think we both know that "knows how to..." is waffle.

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Day Skipper

Which I think is where I came in, three pages ago. "Knowing how to", as Parahandy says, is learned from a book. "Being able to" is learned by doing it. A world of difference between the two.

The old banger comparison is very apt. I originally learned most of my practical skills from keeping a low cost vehicle in sufficiently good condition to get me to work and back every day. All the dodges and bodges learnt as a teenager, in overcoming flat batteries, leaking coolant systems, dirty fuel, blown head gaskets, knocking big-ends, etc., etc., have been useful for the rest of my life. Now I feel pretty confident that few engine problems could not be sorted at the time, although I agree with another correspondent in this thread: my boat is first and foremost a sailing boat. Yachts calling out lifeboats because their engines have failed is almost inexcusable - either anchor until the wind blows, fix it, or sail home.

 

[ParaHandy]

Re: Day Skipper

The Day Skipper course book recommends the candidate to consult the manufacturer’s handbook for more information than the RYA give which is a picture with arrows pointing to the important bits. Where the test is waffle (and this, perhaps, goes to the heart of the point I am attempting to make) is that the course is normally conducted on a training school boat and it is entirely likely that a) the handbook will not be available or b) the design of the engine access is unhelpful to give instruction. Therefore the instructor who is also the examiner will resort to shining a torch into the engine bay and show the candidate the various parts.

Logically, it would be far better to do this as part of the shore based course but this would require additional resources which might be within the capability of a sailing school but completely beyond that of a night school. But this is where the RYA need to apply some thought…how could such training be effectively carried out? It is clearly not happening now and hiding behind the words of the Day Skipper exam syllabus will do nobody any good.

 

[ParaHandy]

There are thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of people who sail boats without engines. They're called lasers, toppers, racing craft of all sizes where the helm has to have all of these skills - except that times have moved on and the skills are applied differently but fundamentally the same. So no, I don't see the relevance of what you say.

Having lived near Potter Heigham for 10 yrs I'd prefer sailing between reed covered mudbanks to getting out of Portsmouth harbour on a foul tide with P&O's finest coming at you and IoW ferry behind and praying that the engine keeps running? It is my worst nightmare.

 

[ParaHandy]

Wasn't MCA's statisticians who mangled the data, twas I. The station numbers match. Several of the stations transposed the rescued and assisted columns which I hadn't seen. Apologies to MCA.

 

[alant]

But these Lasers, Toppers etc, are maily sailed by people who know their limitations. Not by those who seem to think that they must be back in their marina slot by 4 pm on a Sunday, regardless of the situations/conditions they experience.
Most of us are aware that many 'problems' or 'incidents' occur because of this mentality. Rather than 'seamanship' & self reliance, lets anchor on a lee shore, our electric windlass & reliable iron sail will always work!!
It's easier to call for assistance than to sail sensibly or head for the most suitable 'refuge'. Unfortunately come hell or high water these people have different priorities & 'must' get back to their familiar base, sometimes putting themselves, crew & others at risk. Sod rushing to resume the 9-5 job when safety is at issue.
Regarding the RYA, apparently it is now possible to get a Yachtmaster Offshore Ticket without ever having struggled with tides (done entirely in the Med) - yet another potential problem for emergency services.

 

[halcyon]

Re rescue costs
Bit on Radio Cornwall yesterday regarding the yacht that 2 people were picked up from 400 mile south of Lands End.
The Amaricans may or may not charge. If they concider it a exercise it's free, if it's on cost basis the bill will be in the 10's of thousends.


Brian

 

[ParaHandy]

But this is my point. Modern circumstances and priorities have changed and, for example, yachtsmen would appear, from data collected by RNLI & MCA, to be expecting land based levels of reliability whilst at sea and, perhaps not surprisingly, it is not happening. Whereas the RNLI and MCA have managed change within their organisations to focus on this, the RYA have not.

 

[peterb]

Re: Day Skipper

If, on a Day Skipper course, I made every student practice all the RYA engine maintenance requirements, then they would know how to do it on my boat but not necessarily on any other. Much better if first they understand the principles of what has to be done, then at least help to do it on one boat with encouragement to find out how to do it on others (particularly their own).

The Day Skipper syllabus has more than a dozen sections, of which engine maintenance is just one, to be completed normally in five days. You clearly know about the subject, but how long would it take you to change the fuel filter, water filter and cooling water impeller, then bleed the fuel system? Then imagine doing it four times, with a different student each time. I would reckon a student to be doing quite well if he did the lot in less than an hour; four students would take half a day.

In practice I think the RYA courses should be considered more as guidance in self-tuition. They form a good starting point, but should expect people to build on that start as they go along. Once they reach Yachtmaster level they should be able to continue their learning without needing any further formal tuition. Any good sailor recognises that he never knows it all; there's always something else to explore.