RNLI and anchors

[Neeves]

To avoid any misunderstandings.

I have spoken directly to the RNLI in Poole - it took a couple of days to receive the answer from the Engineering Dept

There is no intention to alter the use of Spade on the fleet of Shannon lifeboats. They and any future Shannons will carry 2 Spade anchors. One in a locker and one in a 'housing' on the foredeck. Shannons do not carry Fishermans or Admrialty pattern anchors. When Fishermans were carried, on previous lifeboats, they were a liability as it took two men to carry them. I also re-confirmed this information with one of the Shannon stations and with Spade, who have been supplying the anchors without interruption for the past and future vessels. The policy of the RNLI is that each lifeboat of each class is identical to each other - they all carry the same equipment.

Any suggestion that the Shannon Class will change its anchor is a figment of the imagination. Anyone suggesting that the RNLI is considering change of anchor on the Shannon Class is maligning the RNLI as the idea it is charging the anchors would contradict their policies.


Longer term the position might change, obviously, design does not stand still and the RNLI would take note if a new anchor with factorially great characteristics were introduced (but given the longevity of use of the Delta on the previous offshore boats, when new designs, including Spade, were introduced - I'd not hold your breath).

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[webcraft]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!


- W

 

[TNLI]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!


- W

I know how you feel, as all of this is copied off one of his previous posts to a thread about cards, or was it just spades ?

I'm in Poole and work part time in their HQ, and I've never known them say anything to the public that is not in the public domain. Their is no common anchor in use for different classes. The RIBS carry Lewmar Deltas in their bow anchor lockers, he is correct about the offshore boats as that contract was signed years ago when I was still at Sunseekers for the parts kits for 27 boats. To say they are busy is a big understatement as they have been stealing personnel from Sunseekers, who are not exactly amused about it.
The RNLI is the most popular employer in Poole and probably in Dorset, their accident rate is a fraction of Sunseekers and they pay more. No 2 is Poole hospital, the biggest employer with Sunseekers no 2 in size. Terrible pay but good personnel and no risk of getting fired or layed off.

 

[Neeves]

john_morris_uk

Rocna Vulcan 15kg vs Spade S80?

Sorry but I am unable to reply to your post - directly.

The anecdote I heard was that one (more than one?) of the Lifeboat Stations was given a Spade anchor to try. I imagine changing supplier at RNLI is difficult and your CO would be in a very strong position to influence decisions. Performance of Spade was acceptable (and presumably better than the Delta which was standard on the previous offshore boat) and this led to the use of Spade on the Shannons. This does not negate in any way your comment of your previous CO - as it may all be part of the same history. I have heard, a different anecdote, that the new Chief Exec has introduced protocols, one of which has reduced wastage and he appears to be well respected.

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

john_morris_uk

Rocna Vulcan 15kg vs Spade S80?

Sorry but I am unable to reply to your post - directly.

The anecdote I heard was that one (more than one?) of the Lifeboat Stations was given a Spade anchor to try. I imagine changing supplier at RNLI is difficult and your CO would be in a very strong position to influence decisions. Performance of Spade was acceptable (and presumably better than the Delta which was standard on the previous offshore boat) and this led to the use of Spade on the Shannons. This does not negate in any way your comment of your previous CO - as it may all be part of the same history. I have heard, a different anecdote, that the new Chief Exec has introduced protocols, one of which has reduced wastage and he appears to be well respected.

Jonathan

No worries. I know Paul has retired now so I’ve no inside knowledge. One of the chapters of his latest book has a photo of our boat sailing into the anchorage (with our son then aged about 12 hanging off the shrouds!) just prior to the conversation I reported.

 

[Daydream believer]

One of the chapters of his latest book has a photo of our boat sailing into the anchorage (with our son then aged about 12 hanging off the shrouds!)

Wow ! That was a bit drastic. What did he do? Ask for more gruel? How did you dispose of the body? Did you just leave it hanging for the crows? Do you have any other kids? If you have, I bet they towed the line after that.

 

[caiman]

TNLI- according to the latest 'Loud and Clear', Shannons Build and delivery cost-£2.263M,through life costs-£3.522M.
Cheers.

 

[Juan Twothree]

[Under review. Moderator]


They are some quite serious allegations you're throwing around there.

Hope you've got the evidence to back them up, rather than just hearsay.

 

[TNLI]

TNLI- according to the latest 'Loud and Clear', Shannons Build and delivery cost-£2.263M,through life costs-£3.522M.
Cheers.

Just checked and yes the price has not increased and the latter figure is for the expected life. Not sure how they work that out if the boat gets damaged, as CF can't be repaired without replacing the entire panel. Good stuff though as it's as light as alloy, but stronger than 6mm steel.

 

[TNLI]

I'm not accusing them of anything, it must be my arthmetic that does not add up in initial cost terms. They have admitted to being investigated but not convicted of fraud in the past, but that is not uncommon with lage boat building companies. There is a lot more from the professional fishermen who make the best crew for both local and offshore rescues in terms of some bloggs. They stopped recruting them as a result of a few too many comments. But I'm not saying any more about the Police or what the fishermen had to say, but it is easy to find in Goggle.

Major fraud probe launched at RNLI after member of staff arrested | Bournemouth Echo

I can assure you that everything I say is in the public domain, although I'm stunned they have arrested someone.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Wow ! That was a bit drastic. What did he do? Ask for more gruel? How did you dispose of the body? Did you just leave it hanging for the crows? Do you have any other kids? If you have, I bet they towed the line after that.

He survived somehow.

 

[Juan Twothree]

Major fraud probe launched at RNLI after member of staff arrested | Bournemouth Echo

I can assure you that everything I say is in the public domain, although I'm stunned they have arrested someone.

That was in 2014. He submitted a false invoice, and it was picked up straight away by internal auditing.

The RNLI called in Mr Plod, and the individual was duly charged. He subsequently received a suspended prison sentence.

I'm also aware of another member of staff who was dismissed around 12 years ago. Apparently some of his expense claims were a little exaggerated.

 

[Farmer Piles]

Bound to happen from time to time with any company that has a large number of employees.

 

[Daydream believer]

Bound to happen from time to time with any company that has a large number of employees.

Political content not allowed ?

 

[NormanS]

What is the relevance here? As a yachtsman, I anchor my boat for various reasons, like stopping overnight, stopping to go ashore etc, leaving the boat unattended. Lifeboats don't do any of these things. So why should I care what anchor a particular lifeboat has?

 

[geem]

What is the relevance here? As a yachtsman, I anchor my boat for various reasons, like stopping overnight, stopping to go ashore etc, leaving the boat unattended. Lifeboats don't do any of these things. So why should I care what anchor a particular lifeboat has?

Maybe if it's the choice of our rescue service it's possible that it may be a very good anchor?
They ain't using CQRs?

 

[Roberto]

What is the relevance here? As a yachtsman, I anchor my boat for various reasons, like stopping overnight, stopping to go ashore etc, leaving the boat unattended. Lifeboats don't do any of these things. So why should I care what anchor a particular lifeboat has?

+1 absolutely
never seen one of them at anchor, especially in bad weather, the few hundred horsepower they have seem to be more practical.
The French equivalent (SNSM) has FOB anchors, I have one and apart from kedge/lunch hook I would not trust it in anything serious.

 

[Neeves]

We can argue for ever, as we always do, as to what is a good and what is a bad anchor - but the reality is if you want to buy an anchor then the cost over time is negligible. You can measure time over the lifetime of the anchor, the life time of the yacht or the number of times you anchor - but the cost is really not very much (especially compared with the cost of the vessel or the value of the crew). We need to factor in that the crew expect a reasonable anchor and insurance company demand that the anchor is certificated, and Spade is certificated as being pretty good, better than, say, a Delta.

Many of the new Shannon boats actually tested the anchor before it was bought, for their specific boat, and then the fleet.

Thus crew had 'ownership' (they or a sister station had tested and approved it - as being better than. a Delta and maybe better than other options), the Classification Society approved, the insurance company cannot argue - but you want to argue.


beggars belief. You volunteer,

What do you want (there are lots of cheap CQRs sitting decorating gardens) - see how your mates react. Why exactly would you want to carry - a Delta, or one certificated as SHHP, or maybe you would want to carry an FOB - that some members here would only use as a lunch hook.


In this example, Quo Vadis off New Brighton on the Mersey the lifeboat, Hoylake, was called out by an individual on shore (who took the photographs), the inflatable, New Brighton, had been called out on another rescue and was coincidentally on hand. The owner of the yacht said he was fine and thank you but he did not need to be 'rescued'. Hoylake said 'not a problem, we'll anchor alongside you in case you change your mind and until the weather abates'. The owner under the moral pressure, or the reality, said OK come aboard etc.

The owner could have been pigheaded - what sort of anchor would you want on your lifeboat (this lifeboat had 2 x Deltas).

I visited the lifeboat station, Hoylake, about 2 weeks after the event and spoke to the lifeboat crew who had been on the call out. I had had email correspondence with the owner of Quo Vadis.

The yacht owner knew of the imminent deterioration of the weather but missed a, or the, window (tide?) to find good shelter (Preston Marina?) and dropped his anchor as the wind started to build, to Strong Gale. He was single handed (so no wife on board suing for divorce). I simply don't know the area but I believe there is some sort of breakwater further down river - but it does not appear to have had much impact on the seas. I did go to New Brighton with a crew member from Hoylake - but the Mersey was a flat calm (with some modern art on the beach in the form of large penguins!)



Above - The man with the white hat, helmet, is off the Hoylake boat. They have a line board Quo Vadis, the Hoylake boat is off image to the left with the other end of the line. The 'shout' was 'pre-Shannon'.



I don't know the precise timing during the period that the Spade anchors were approved but the RNLI had incidences, 'shouts', like the Quo Vadis, they did anchor or might have need to anchor in adverse conditions. The boats needed to be equipped with Classification Society anchors - and historically they had carried Deltas, but they could also have carried CQRs or Bruce - all 3 of which were High Holding Power anchors. Moving forward to the Shannon era and a chance to upgrade the anchors there was a new choice of anchor, certificated Super High Holding Power, Rocna, Manson's Supreme, Anchor Right's Excel (and maybe SARCA) and Spade. The CEO of the RNLI at this time used a Spade, and enthused on same, on his own yacht, see a contemporaneous thread. I heard, anecdotally, that Blue Water offered samples of Spade to individual stations to test (clever move).

And the rest is history - Lewmar's Epsilon missed the boat and Rocna may have discontinued their Certification (don't know- but it is still SHHP quality to me). Anchor Right and Manson did not think to offer samples - why would you - its all about, luck - timing and having a product champion.

Serendipity at its best.

Jonathan

 

[Juan Twothree]

+1 absolutely
never seen one of them at anchor, especially in bad weather, the few hundred horsepower they have seem to be more practical.
The French equivalent (SNSM) has FOB anchors, I have one and apart from kedge/lunch hook I would not trust it in anything serious.

There's a procedure we use on inshore lifeboats whereby we anchor the boat, then veer down on the anchor cable to retrieve someone from a beach with dumping surf, or at the foot of a cliff, or whatever.

Anywhere where we might struggle to get out again safely.

 

[Roberto]

There's a procedure we use on inshore lifeboats whereby we anchor the boat, then veer down on the anchor cable to retrieve someone from a beach with dumping surf, or at the foot of a cliff, or whatever.

Anywhere where we might struggle to get out again safely.

Thanks, do you switch off the engines while doing so? Or if during this maneuver the anchor drags(God forbid) or the chain breaks, will the lifeboat be 100% lost?
I mean, the safety mixture for a lifeboat is very different from a normal cruising sailboat where being at anchor (and with relatively small engines) can be a significant proportion of the time.