Responsibility

[snowleopard]

Some years ago I had a visiting crew on board who said he intended to take the YM Offshore. I let him plot a course then checked it myself before he set the autopilot. The track went right over a half-tide rock. I have always double-checked the crew's actions since then.

I've only used raster charts. I'm not sure I like the idea of reefs dropping out at small scales on a vector chart!

 

[Seajet]

I'd imagine if he'd said something unkind about the Anderson 22 the situation would have been reversed!

Well obviously we all have standards !

 

[Tomahawk]

I wonder if the skipper and navigator will ever get another ride? Would you trust them?
Perhaps after that nasty wake up call they will forever be viligent? or did it show up a flaw that remains?

 

[Seajet]

It was a very simple cock-up, nothing more or less, and there's the question about the plotter making hazards invisible.

Remember the fatigue involved in any boat on a long trip, let alone a balls-out racing job; yes I'd be happy to sail with skipper and navigator.

I've always said ' rocks, fog or big waves don't get you, fatigue is the killer '

 

[awol]

There, but for the grace of god, .........

I learned some time ago, and luckily by not hitting something hard, that vector charts were prone to hiding detail on some zoom levels. These were noddy, leisure, "Not to be used for navigation", versions - as used by a lot of you - and I seem to remember threads on the subject.

I found the detail in the report on the different mapping dongles/software loads interesting. Was cost a factor in which program/chart they used? Seems crazy, if so, after spending so much on the rest of the campaign.

As to responsibility - the navigator made a cock-up, the skipper was responsible for the boat hitting the reef.

 

[GrahamM376]

...................I've only used raster charts. I'm not sure I like the idea of reefs dropping out at small scales on a vector chart!

Some years ago there was a pirate copy of Seapro 2000 doing the rounds, Ramsey Sound was shown as clear water, the Bitches weren't there what ever the scale! Same applies to some admiralty charts, unless the large scale sub charts are also purchased there's lots of missing info.

 

[GrahamM376]

OK, so what exactly does the skipper do to check a course which the navigator tells him is OK?

Like all good skippers you do your own homework on the detail and then ask the right questions of your Navigator and if the answers don't fit you check yourself.
In this case one obvious question was 'at what scale have you checked this course?'

If you are supposed to go through his plan in such detail, may as well do without a navigator and do it yourself.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If you are supposed to go through his plan in such detail, may as well do without a navigator and do it yourself.

That's my feeling too. The worst person I have ever worked with (and not, thank goodness, for) used to delegate stuff and then check and redo everything he had delegated. Demoralising for his staff, hopelessly inefficient ... and got worse results, 'cos he didn't redo the stuff very well. I really can't see the point of employing a navigator you don't trust.

 

[mainsail1]

I didn't say that you go through his plan in detail. I said that as skipper you should do your homework on the detail before discussing the navigator's plan.
In other words you look at the trip and it's hazards and bear them in mind when you speak with the navigator about his plan. If the navigator has ticked all the right boxes in your mind that's all you do. As you get to understand the level of reliability of your navigator you probably intervene very rarely, unless things don't seem right.
I know about Captains in the RN who demoralise their subordinates by interfering when it is unnecessary but as navigator of a warship I would fully expect my Captain to have a chat about my plans and I would know full well he had done some research for himself before that chat and that's how it should be. I might have missed something. A Captain or skipper has ultimate responsibility for the ship or boat, whatever the size, and one of his jobs is to ask the right questions at the right time.

 

[oldbilbo]

.....as navigator of a warship I would fully expect my Captain to have a chat about my plans and I would know full well he had done some research for himself before that chat and that's how it should be. I might have missed something. A Captain or skipper has ultimate responsibility for the ship or boat, whatever the size, and one of his jobs is to ask the right questions at the right time.

Those on a vessel/boat at sea are dependent for their vital safety on the skills and judgement of the Captain, or skipper, or 'person in charge'. It's the same deal in the air....

I've heard it argued that a commercial manager cannot be held responsible for each activity of each employee, and that a head teacher cannot be responsible for the actions and words of each teacher in a school, but IMHO that thinking uses the wrong yardstick. Bringing the practices and attitudes of one's day job to bear on one's responsibility at sea is inappropriate.

The commercial marine world takes great care to ensure that those given command are well-qualified by knowledge and experience to exercise the judgements their role demands - that of keeping their passengers and crew safe from the sea. The law recognises this.

Do we 'amateurs', with our Blue Ensigns and posh Dubarrys, shoulder this responsibility too lightly?

 

[awol]

I offer you 2 representations of the same area - Goat Rock may not be as extensive as the Cargados Carajos Shoals but it could spoil your day badly

 

[JumbleDuck]

Those on a vessel/boat at sea are dependent for their vital safety on the skills and judgement of the Captain, or skipper, or 'person in charge'. It's the same deal in the air....

They are also dependent for their safety on the navigator, the engineers, the surveyor ... Would you expect the pilot of an aircraft to grill Rolls-Royce technicians on the last overhaul performed on each engine? Much of commercial aviation practice involves the captain and co-pilot cross checking each other's decisions and actions. It's the same in operating theatres. Collective responsibility is a great thing and we shouldn't assume that the Royal Navy's practice is an ideal, even for the Royal Navy.

Do we 'amateurs', with our Blue Ensigns and posh Dubarrys, shoulder this responsibility too lightly?

I can do a heck of a lot more damage with a ton and a half of car than I can do with four tons of boat, but I don't feel any need to establish a hierarchy of command every time we go for a family trip up the M74. I suspect that the notion of the skipper standing alone on a summit of responsibility is mostly a hangover from very old-fashioned and sexist models of family life; Father in command, Mother meekly cutting sandwiches (it's not that long since YM reviews would say "For the women, the galley is ...") and the children learning their allotted roles in life from example.

None of this precludes people from running their JenBenBav along strict military lines if that gives them pleasure, of course, but it's not the only way to do it and it's not necessarily the best way to do it. Would this have happened if the whole crew had been involved in decision making and not just the (Royal Navy) skipper?

Disclaimer: I have the posh Dubarrys, but my Scottish ensigns are defiantly red.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I offer you 2 representations of the same area - Goat Rock may not be as extensive as the Cargados Carajos Shoals but it could spoil your day badly

The omission of Goat Rock at small (or is it large?) scales isn't an inevitable consequence of using vector charts. It arises because the models of what information to add or subtract as you zoom in and out are arbitrary and not well though through. It would be possible to leave in all hazardous depths of, say, 5m or less even at large (or is it small?) scales, even if they became effectively points hazards or if they merged together to become areas of hazard.

Incidentally, doesn't the symbol immediately south of Goat Rock suggest that someone already has had a rather bad day there?

 

[oldbilbo]

Collective responsibility is a great thing

I can do a heck of a lot more damage with a ton and a half of car than I can do with four tons of boat, but I don't feel any need to establish a hierarchy of command every time we go for a family trip up the M74.
Disclaimer: I have the posh Dubarrys, but my Scottish ensigns are defiantly red.

I can't quite see you - or any heid-ana-hauf like you - having a 'group huddle' on the approach to each junction. Your bampot ideas seem closer related to 'slopey shoulders' than manning-up.

Supposin' - jist supposin - you have a pile-up while you are driving your ton-and-a-half of car. Three dead. Who among you do the rozzers breathalyse, and who among you find yoursel' standing arraigned in the Sheriff's Court on Monday?

Tell me again about your take on responsibility....

 

[JumbleDuck]

I can't quite see you - or any heid-ana-hauf like you - having a 'group huddle' on the approach to each junction. Your bampot ideas seem closer related to 'slopey shoulders' than manning-up.

Have you never discussed which route to take with other people in the car? Incidentally, I'm not sure that personally abusive language adds anything to the discussion.

Supposin' - jist supposin - you have a pile-up while you are driving your ton-and-a-half of car. Three dead. Who among you do the rozzers breathalyse, and who among you find yoursel' standing arraigned in the Sheriff's Court on Monday?

The person who was driving. Just as, when ships pile up on islands, it's the person at the helm who gets done, as I posted earlier. A defence in the motoring case which said "my client admits he was driving, but his friend Dave in the back seat was skipper of the car and therefore must take all responsibility" probably wouldn't get very far.

Tell me again about your take on responsibility....

That you can't pass it on to other people.

 

[GrahamM376]

That you can't pass it on to other people.

Is the captain of an aircraft responsible when the first officer locks him out of the cockpit? I don't think so.

 

[mcframe]

I wouldn't be so hasty...

I once had a big chap, an Icelandic ship-builder, as crew; he'd warned me that ' he went nasty if drinking spirits ' but I thought that just talk - when he started to get beligerent in the pub I walked back to the boat leaving him to it.

Next thing I knew I was pinned by the throat against a bulkhead, with all sorts of threats...I couldn't reach knives or flares and didn't really want to use them anyway so played about the only card I had, ' As Commander I order you off this vessel under British Law ' and by something of a miracle the bullshit worked so he cleared off !

I sail with my children, under the red ensign, on a British Ship:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/105

You don't have to say this bit first, but it might help ;-)

"Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the act made in the first year of King George, for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King!"

 

[JumbleDuck]

Is the captain of an aircraft responsible when the first officer locks him out of the cockpit? I don't think so.

It seems a little unlikely, yes.

 

[Seajet]

I sail with my children, under the red ensign, on a British Ship:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/105

You don't have to say this bit first, but it might help ;-)

"Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the act made in the first year of King George, for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King!"

I'm sure that would be a huge help, but in the meantime until it's in the RYA Syalbus I'll go for the ' Large object and thump 'im technique ' followed by reciting ' Jerusalem '

 

[Boreades]

There, but for the grace of god, (continued) .........

A day trip from the Helford to the Fal and back taught me a lesson in checking the charts that has stuck ever since.

August Rock, with a Spring High Tide, is safe to use as a waypoint.

But 10 hours later (at low tide), on a reciprocal bearing, August Rock is not a safe waypoint. The depth alarm told us something was not quite right. The gentle bump as we just touched August Rock definitely told us what was not quite right.

My bruvver was navigating, but I was the skipper. I blamed myself, not him. We were lucky, the thing most damaged was our pride.